22re problem

nat88toy · 05-05-07, 09:02 PM

Buddies has an 88 pickup 22re
The other day he went to start it up and it turned over right away but it sounded like diesel, but in the worst way. Almost like some one dropped a few bal bearings into the head so he immediately shut it down and unscrewed the oil cap to find the head was filed with oil. w.t.f. is going on with this thing anyone have any ideas i am thinking connecting rod but that is just best guess

Monday we will pop off the head and take a look

WristPin · 05-05-07, 09:56 PM

yikes!

somthin broke off and clogged the oil return hole. or, there is sludge in there. or, there is sludge clogging the passages in the valve cover and, just that is filled with oil. i dunno. taking the valve cover off is the first step.

but i think that it would be a good idea to take it aprt tomorrow. in hopes that oil somwhat drains back. so that way, you dont flood the driveway when you take the valve cover off.

did you pull the dipstick?

2ndGenToyotaFan · 05-05-07, 10:06 PM

Was it sitting facing uphill? THere is a small oil return hole in the rear of the head, but it would be a good trick to clog the front where the timing chain is..... that's a big hole!

nat88toy · 05-06-07, 11:54 PM

turns out it was a water pump nut floating threw the engine

i will post pics on tuesday when n8 and i get workin on the engine again

2ndGenToyotaFan · 05-07-07, 12:06 AM

Floating?

I had a nut fall down the rear hole and it made a very smokey mess when going uphill, but only going uphill. That one had me confused for a while....

WristPin · 05-07-07, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nat88toy

turns out it was a water pump nut floating threw the engine

i will post pics on tuesday when n8 and i get workin on the engine again

yeah please do, as i dont even undertand your post.

"N8" · 05-07-07, 01:00 AM

Ok so what happend in order was this:

At some point someone (im not ruling out me but I dont think it was) droped one of the four nuts holding on the watter pump pully into the oil pan.

That nut then got loged in between the oil pump gear and the aluminum housing around the lower part of the oil pump the nut broke the aluminum housing into small 1/8 inch peices that were bouant enough to float up with oil to the top of the head.

about six little peices of aluminum landed on top of a valve and when that valve opened it droped the aluminum into the piston chamber.

the piston came up and mashed the aluminum chuncks into the head and repeated this process making a very loud scary metal on metal noise (why whe thought a conecting rod had broke)

now there are goudge marks in both the head and the piston from where the aluminum was.

anyone think that I need to replace the piston or the head??? is it ok to have goudge marks on the top of the piston, if not why? same with the head.

also I fear that there is still aluminum in the oil ports that may have not yet made its way up into the pistons how should I go about cleaning everything out??? I thought maybe submerse the whole lower block pistons crank and all into a vat of 4d 40 or some cleaning solution... good idea bad idea???

any thoughts would be helpfull at this point.

thanks guys!

(this sucks)

KY854RUN · 05-07-07, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "N8"

Ok so what happend in order was this:

At some point someone (im not ruling out me but I dont think it was) droped one of the four nuts holding on the watter pump pully into the oil pan.

That nut then got loged in between the oil pump gear and the aluminum housing around the lower part of the oil pump the nut broke the aluminum housing into small 1/8 inch peices that were bouant enough to float up with oil to the top of the head.

about six little peices of aluminum landed on top of a valve and when that valve opened it droped the aluminum into the piston chamber.

Whoa, something is not right with this!

How can a piece of metal, that is in the oiling system get into the intake?

Oil gets sucked up into the pump from the oil pan through the pickup tube and then goes to the oil filter. How can a piece of metal that large get through the filter? A piece 1/8 inch in size is very large when you are talking about what an oil filter is supposed to filter out of the oil. Oil filtration is measured in "microns." A micron is 1 millionth of a meter. Oil filters will not let anything that size pass by.

Now, lets just suppose that pieces of the front cover broke off into the timing chain area and then were carried up to the valve cover. even then they could not get into the intake system.

Something got sucked in through the intake to do that damage. You need to be looking for what else may be damaged in this engine.

You need to do COMPLETE rebuild in order to clean out the oil galleys and inspect all of the bearing surfaces.

As for the gouge marks, they need to be smoothed out. If left alone, they can become hot points that will cause detonation problems for the engine and detonation will destroy an engine. Although, the knock sensor would detect this, the computer would make corrections and the engine would run poorly.

"N8" · 05-08-07, 02:00 AM

I was able to take the peices of metal that were being smashed and fit them together lego style to the aluminum just under the oil pump. I asume they were thrown or caried up into the head via the big hole for the timing chain and somehow worked themselves through a valve (the peices were not that big)

anyway I think the idea is to strip the block and soak it in gasoliene for a day or two and then hit the oil gallys with compresed air to get the rest of it out.
and instead of smoothing the piston head im just going to replace it with one of my many spares.

wish me luck

Mark W · 05-08-07, 04:05 AM

Yep, that theory won't stand up. No way to get through a valve except from inside the intake system. Not from the oiling system. No way, no how.

A nut in the oil pan will just sit on the bottom. It won't get sucked up. No way, no how.

If it did get sucked up, it would not get through the screen on the pickup. Again, NWNH.

If it did get into the pump and cause breakage, the pieces will not get through the filter. A big NWNH.

Anything that got caught up in the timing chain would have been stripped off by the chain tensioner and/or the chain guide. If something did manage to migrate up that way (this is at least possible) it would just sit in the rocker box. No way to get into the cylinder from there.

If it's in the cylinder, it came in through the valves or was left in there during assembly. If it came through the valve it did so from inside the intake tract.

Mark...

KY854RUN · 05-08-07, 11:54 AM

Nate,

Please post some photos so we can see the damage.

2x on what Mark W said.

Something came in through the intake.

You need to do a complete tear down and inspect everyting.

"N8" · 05-08-07, 09:51 PM

Ya tonight was the first time I was able to get some photos that were worth a damn so later tonight when im on my own computer ill load them up.

Dont worrie about me tearing it down the thing is in peices right now and im scrutiniseing EVERYTHING

thanks guys

p.s. if it were to happen how would anything get from the oil pan or head into the intake?

2ndGenToyotaFan · 05-08-07, 09:57 PM

Do you have a PVC valve? It could get sucked up and into the intake that way.... I'd play the lotto before betting on that hapening though......

Mark W · 05-08-07, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "N8"

p.s. if it were to happen how would anything get from the oil pan or head into the intake?

It can't.

Mark...

Mark W · 05-08-07, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGenToyotaFan

Do you have a PVC valve? It could get sucked up and into the intake that way.... I'd play the lotto before betting on that hapening though......

Beyond extremely doubtful. There's a baffle below the PCV valve. Then there is the valve itself. Not really anyway through there for anything solid. And then the fact that the suction through there is actually pretty small.

Liquid or gas? Sure. Solid debris? Nope.

Mark...

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:17 AM

I may be asking a stupid question here but why is it inconprehedable that it could have worked its way into a valve through a compression spring and droped into the cylinder on start when it was opened? the peices were sure small enough to make it through the valve seals and the opening of a valve...

and there has to be a way because the aluminum that I found cramed into my piston and head definatly originated from the valve cover below the oil pump.

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:24 AM

Ok here comes the photos get ready

the red arrow points to the nut that was found in the oil pan. you can see how the head is shiny from being milled by the oil pump.

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:30 AM

In this photo the two red arrows are pointing to the peice of aluminum that was making the most of the noise, and I am pointing at the broken jaged aluminum housing that set aluminum peice originated from.

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:32 AM

those other two peices were accually a buncha shavings that had been mashed together and were plyable and able to be crumbled into metal chips.

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:35 AM

here is an out of focus shot of the head

more specifically the dent that the aluminum made in my head

sry its out of focus my camera was not up to shooting that close.

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:40 AM

O here is one accually in focus

you can accually see there is more than one dent but the one I was pointing to was the worst.

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:43 AM

Head gasket was fine

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:46 AM

here is the cylinder that was f-ed

looks fine

2ndGenToyotaFan · 05-09-07, 12:47 AM

For something to get from the valve train down a valve hole and into the cylinder it would have to get past the valve seal, which keeps oil out, but they have been known to fail, but even if it failed completely the next obsticle is the valve guide that the valve rides in, which has only a few thousands of an inch clearance....

The chances of something that sized making it up through a PVC valve are pretty much non-existant, and completely nonexistant if you are relying on engine vacuum to do the job. Those sized chunks of metal are huge!!!! When you are speaking of stuff floating around in your engine, that is..... What's the history on this thing? Was it rebuilt by someone?

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:50 AM

you guys dont think it could have gotten through one of these?

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:53 AM

btw this is what my table looks like right now

"N8" · 05-09-07, 12:58 AM

any ideas would help guys I dont want to go through all the trouble of all this work put it back together and have it happen again.

right now the lower end is sitting in a tub of gasoliene and the head is off with a new couple of valves and seals on order incase i screwed up these ones.

my plan is tomorrow to go pick up the valves and seals. at the dealership order a new front and rear main oil seal and change out the valves and then maybe take out the block from its bucket o gas and hit the oil gallys and ports with compressed air.

any other thoughts???

05-05-07, 09:02 PM	#1
nat88toy IH8MUD Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: boston TLCA# 16379 Posts: 609	22re problem Buddies has an 88 pickup 22re The other day he went to start it up and it turned over right away but it sounded like diesel, but in the worst way. Almost like some one dropped a few bal bearings into the head so he immediately shut it down and unscrewed the oil cap to find the head was filed with oil. w.t.f. is going on with this thing anyone have any ideas i am thinking connecting rod but that is just best guess Monday we will pop off the head and take a look __________________ 88 4runner.. SAS, 4" trail gear lift, 34" super swamper ltb, arb, warn 9000, snorkel, extreme air, aussie locked and a bunch of other junk 98 sr5 T100 32" procomp mtr 1994 fzj-80 factory locked, Slee 4" lift, Landtank caster plates, Arb bumper, warn 12,000, arb bumper, snorkel, 35" TrXus mt, full belly skid, extreme air

05-05-07, 10:06 PM	#3
2ndGenToyotaFan No longer pre-approved... Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Yreka, CA TLCA# 13872 Sign Up!!! You know you want to! Posts: 3,898	Was it sitting facing uphill? THere is a small oil return hole in the rear of the head, but it would be a good trick to clog the front where the timing chain is..... that's a big hole! __________________ Jerod Online Toyota Parts Catalog!!! 89 4Runner "The James Caird" 01 4Runner, for my Jefferson State Cruisers

05-06-07, 11:54 PM	#4
nat88toy IH8MUD Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: boston TLCA# 16379 Posts: 609	turns out it was a water pump nut floating threw the engine i will post pics on tuesday when n8 and i get workin on the engine again __________________ 88 4runner.. SAS, 4" trail gear lift, 34" super swamper ltb, arb, warn 9000, snorkel, extreme air, aussie locked and a bunch of other junk 98 sr5 T100 32" procomp mtr 1994 fzj-80 factory locked, Slee 4" lift, Landtank caster plates, Arb bumper, warn 12,000, arb bumper, snorkel, 35" TrXus mt, full belly skid, extreme air

05-07-07, 12:06 AM	#5
2ndGenToyotaFan No longer pre-approved... Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Yreka, CA TLCA# 13872 Sign Up!!! You know you want to! Posts: 3,898	Floating? I had a nut fall down the rear hole and it made a very smokey mess when going uphill, but only going uphill. That one had me confused for a while.... __________________ Jerod Online Toyota Parts Catalog!!! 89 4Runner "The James Caird" 01 4Runner, for my Jefferson State Cruisers

05-07-07, 01:00 AM	#7
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	Ok so what happend in order was this: At some point someone (im not ruling out me but I dont think it was) droped one of the four nuts holding on the watter pump pully into the oil pan. That nut then got loged in between the oil pump gear and the aluminum housing around the lower part of the oil pump the nut broke the aluminum housing into small 1/8 inch peices that were bouant enough to float up with oil to the top of the head. about six little peices of aluminum landed on top of a valve and when that valve opened it droped the aluminum into the piston chamber. the piston came up and mashed the aluminum chuncks into the head and repeated this process making a very loud scary metal on metal noise (why whe thought a conecting rod had broke) now there are goudge marks in both the head and the piston from where the aluminum was. anyone think that I need to replace the piston or the head??? is it ok to have goudge marks on the top of the piston, if not why? same with the head. also I fear that there is still aluminum in the oil ports that may have not yet made its way up into the pistons how should I go about cleaning everything out??? I thought maybe submerse the whole lower block pistons crank and all into a vat of 4d 40 or some cleaning solution... good idea bad idea??? any thoughts would be helpfull at this point. thanks guys! (this sucks) __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-08-07, 02:00 AM	#9
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	I was able to take the peices of metal that were being smashed and fit them together lego style to the aluminum just under the oil pump. I asume they were thrown or caried up into the head via the big hole for the timing chain and somehow worked themselves through a valve (the peices were not that big) anyway I think the idea is to strip the block and soak it in gasoliene for a day or two and then hit the oil gallys with compresed air to get the rest of it out. and instead of smoothing the piston head im just going to replace it with one of my many spares. wish me luck __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-08-07, 04:05 AM	#10
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,525	Yep, that theory won't stand up. No way to get through a valve except from inside the intake system. Not from the oiling system. No way, no how. A nut in the oil pan will just sit on the bottom. It won't get sucked up. No way, no how. If it did get sucked up, it would not get through the screen on the pickup. Again, NWNH. If it did get into the pump and cause breakage, the pieces will not get through the filter. A big NWNH. Anything that got caught up in the timing chain would have been stripped off by the chain tensioner and/or the chain guide. If something did manage to migrate up that way (this is at least possible) it would just sit in the rocker box. No way to get into the cylinder from there. If it's in the cylinder, it came in through the valves or was left in there during assembly. If it came through the valve it did so from inside the intake tract. Mark...

05-08-07, 11:54 AM	#11
KY854RUN IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Northern Arizona TLCA# 3200 Posts: 345	Nate, Please post some photos so we can see the damage. 2x on what Mark W said. Something came in through the intake. You need to do a complete tear down and inspect everyting. __________________ Kevin `85 4Runner - work in progress M416 Trailer - ukn year, rebuilt July 2007, build thread `68 FJ40 - planning stages of a build Green Country Cruisers - member Wish List - to long to post

05-08-07, 09:51 PM	#12
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	Ya tonight was the first time I was able to get some photos that were worth a damn so later tonight when im on my own computer ill load them up. Dont worrie about me tearing it down the thing is in peices right now and im scrutiniseing EVERYTHING thanks guys p.s. if it were to happen how would anything get from the oil pan or head into the intake? __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-08-07, 09:57 PM	#13
2ndGenToyotaFan No longer pre-approved... Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Yreka, CA TLCA# 13872 Sign Up!!! You know you want to! Posts: 3,898	Do you have a PVC valve? It could get sucked up and into the intake that way.... I'd play the lotto before betting on that hapening though...... __________________ Jerod Online Toyota Parts Catalog!!! 89 4Runner "The James Caird" 01 4Runner, for my Jefferson State Cruisers

05-09-07, 12:17 AM	#16
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	I may be asking a stupid question here but why is it inconprehedable that it could have worked its way into a valve through a compression spring and droped into the cylinder on start when it was opened? the peices were sure small enough to make it through the valve seals and the opening of a valve... and there has to be a way because the aluminum that I found cramed into my piston and head definatly originated from the valve cover below the oil pump. __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:24 AM	#17
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	Ok here comes the photos get ready the red arrow points to the nut that was found in the oil pan. you can see how the head is shiny from being milled by the oil pump. Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:30 AM	#18
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	In this photo the two red arrows are pointing to the peice of aluminum that was making the most of the noise, and I am pointing at the broken jaged aluminum housing that set aluminum peice originated from. Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:32 AM	#19
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	those other two peices were accually a buncha shavings that had been mashed together and were plyable and able to be crumbled into metal chips. __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:35 AM	#20
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	here is an out of focus shot of the head more specifically the dent that the aluminum made in my head sry its out of focus my camera was not up to shooting that close. Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:40 AM	#21
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	O here is one accually in focus you can accually see there is more than one dent but the one I was pointing to was the worst. Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:43 AM	#22
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	Head gasket was fine Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:46 AM	#23
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	here is the cylinder that was f-ed looks fine Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:47 AM	#24
2ndGenToyotaFan No longer pre-approved... Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Yreka, CA TLCA# 13872 Sign Up!!! You know you want to! Posts: 3,898	For something to get from the valve train down a valve hole and into the cylinder it would have to get past the valve seal, which keeps oil out, but they have been known to fail, but even if it failed completely the next obsticle is the valve guide that the valve rides in, which has only a few thousands of an inch clearance.... The chances of something that sized making it up through a PVC valve are pretty much non-existant, and completely nonexistant if you are relying on engine vacuum to do the job. Those sized chunks of metal are huge!!!! When you are speaking of stuff floating around in your engine, that is..... What's the history on this thing? Was it rebuilt by someone? __________________ Jerod Online Toyota Parts Catalog!!! 89 4Runner "The James Caird" 01 4Runner, for my Jefferson State Cruisers

05-09-07, 12:50 AM	#25
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	you guys dont think it could have gotten through one of these? Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)

05-09-07, 12:53 AM	#26
"N8" IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boston Ma Posts: 427	btw this is what my table looks like right now Attached Images __________________ -Nate 88 PU long bed, pro comp 33's All Pro rear suspension Toyota factory e-locker 4/88's And a whole lot of dents contributed solely by new england's natural flora and fauna (mostly responsible is one species of flora... pine) (and the elusive new england delivery truck)