22re problem

["N8"]

Originally Posted by 2ndGenToyotaFan

For something to get from the valve train down a valve hole and into the cylinder it would have to get past the valve seal, which keeps oil out, but they have been known to fail, but even if it failed completely the next obsticle is the valve guide that the valve rides in, which has only a few thousands of an inch clearance....

The chances of something that sized making it up through a PVC valve are pretty much non-existant, and completely nonexistant if you are relying on engine vacuum to do the job. Those sized chunks of metal are huge!!!! When you are speaking of stuff floating around in your engine, that is..... What's the history on this thing? Was it rebuilt by someone?

2nd gen it was definatly "somewhat" rebuilt by someone else, there were non toyota gaskets in it when I got it and it looks like the head and maybe the block have been milled... dono for any certenty tho.

["N8"]

Originally Posted by Mark W

Without meaning to sound harsh, but it seems that you are not understanding the configuration of the valves, the intake tract, the valve springs and the rockerbox area of the engine.


---Ok so the only thing I havnt dismantled on one of these things is the valves so I admit that I dont know how they spesifically work. only reason I thought it may have been culprit is because I peeked in through the intake manifold to a valve that was open and saw that there was plenty of room for the debri to fall through inbetween the valve and its seat. so I might have been wrong with my analasys but fact is im still baffled how that aluminum got into the block.





The springs pull upward on the valve stem. The valve stem passes through the head with just barely enough clearance for oil to work it;'s way between the stem and the guide. A thousandth of an inch or so. There is no way for anything to get through there from the valve cover/rockerbox area. The intake tract is completely sealed off and separate from the cams and valvespring area. There is no passage from the valve spring to the head of the valve. Unless a valve has snapped and fallen into a cylinder leaving the valve guide empty. But if that happens, you got more to worry about than some debris from another part of the motor finding it's way in there. And even if that did happen, that nut is still to big to pass through a valve guide, even with the valve gone.


---yes all the valves are in working order, but just to be sure for the #3 cylinder I got new ones.






Any debris you found in the cylinders came in through the intake. Or was inserted through a spark plug hole (which is virtually impossible to have happen accidentally).


---So I know this didnt come through a spark plug hole as it originated inside the timing chain cover, but how did it get from there to on top of a cylinder???




There is no way for anything to get inside of the oil pump and cause it to fail. Especially a nut of that size. That nut could have damaged the oil pump from the outside of the pump itself if it got jammed up in the timing chain/gears and crammed against the side of the housing where the pump is.


---Yes that was bad wording on my part the nut stayed in the oil pan area but it was the only thing in there that we found that could have caused the timing chain housing to break. when we looked at the nut it was slightly milled on one side as if the oil pump gear had been spinning against it. so all I can imagine is the nut being cramed into the space between the oil pump gear and the housing and finally it sucked the nut through and broke the timing chain housing.





That looks like a 12mm nut. If so, it is not from the water pump pully/fan. Those are 10mm on the 22RE

----you are right and wrong it is a 10mm nut and definatly from the water pump pully. (i had one sitting right there next to the engine)





Pieces of AL will not put those dents in your head. That is from steel debris that has probably passed out of the engine via the exhaust valve.


-----well when you consider that both the head and the piston are aluminum I think its perfictly reasonable to think that those peices would make dents in both. Also its not like I didnt need a pair of plyers to get that noisy little f-er out of its own little dent. so I know that at least that one went to that dent and it was the largest of all the dents.






Mark...

.....still baffled

["N8"]

Originally Posted by KLF

In your first picture, the thing you are calling the "head" is actually the timing cover. The oil pump is nowhere near the head. The head is on top of the engine, the oil pump is on the bottom, at the front end of the crank.

And, ya there's no way that nut could have gotten sucked up into the oil pump, it wouldn't have fit thru the screen on the pickup tube.

I think that nut was rolling around near the bottom timing chain sprocket, did that damage, then fell down into the pan. Not sure what damaged the head and piston like that, but for sure it wasn't that nut.

Hi ken.
So I dont think I called the timing chain cover the head, and I went back and breifly looked at my posts and still dont think I did but if so I apoligise. the first two photos are of the debri I found on top of the piston and mashed into the head right next to the timing chain cover where they were broken from.

The second two photos are of the head turned upside down. you can see the soark plug and the intake and exaust valves.

oh and ya that nut didnt get up there it stayed in the oil pan im just asuming its what broke the aluminum I found up there, but I still dont know how that got there either.

["N8"]

EURIKA!!!!

ok so I picked up the new intake valve today (exaust is on its way from new york) and started digging into the valves and guess what???

The valve guide is snaped about half way into the head and 1/4 of it is missing. or at least has been found loged in my piston.

so the theory of the watterpump nut is over with I guess that hitchhiker didnt do any harm, and looks like my valve cover was just f-ed up to begin with. oh and I now have a good working knoledge of how the valves are installed.

so now its on to figuring out how to get the old valve guide out of the head and the new one in. any sugestions from you guys we have a small 12 ton press in the shop but i dono how I would suport the head at the 30 degree angle the valve is set or whatever its really canted at??? The fsm says to heat the head to 200 degrees and tap out the old one and tap in the new one with a hammer but its not like we have a kilm or anything so i dono how ide pull that one off... any ideas?

[KLF]

Originally Posted by "N8"

so now its on to figuring out how to get the old valve guide out of the head and the new one in. any sugestions from you guys we have a small 12 ton press in the shop but i dono how I would suport the head at the 30 degree angle the valve is set or whatever its really canted at??? The fsm says to heat the head to 200 degrees and tap out the old one and tap in the new one with a hammer but its not like we have a kilm or anything so i dono how ide pull that one off... any ideas?

I try to do as much work as possible on my truck, but this is something I would have a machine shop do. If you screw it up, you could ruin the head. It shouldn't cost much, and you can have them grind the valve seat at the same time.

Something else I did on my head before putting it back on, I drilled out all the threads for the exhaust studs and cam pillow blocks, and installed Helicoils. This was easy to do on my drill press in my basement, but I also had a stripped spark plug hole which I had the machine shop fix.

[KY854RUN]

Originally Posted by "N8"

The fsm says to heat the head to 200 degrees and tap out the old one and tap in the new one with a hammer but its not like we have a kilm or anything so i dono how ide pull that one off... any ideas?

The recipe should say... Bake at 200 degrees for 30 to 60 minutes or until nicely browned.


Take it to a machine shop and have them replace the guide.



Now we know where the piston/cylinder head damage came from, but you have not explained the other damage.

I think I have an explanation that fits what we know and see in the photos.

The photos in posts #17 & #18 are of the BACK side of the front cover. The oil pump goes on the front of that cover. So, that damage is the area where the timing chain goes and not the oil pump. That probably is a nut from the water pump pulley. The most likely explanation is, that it was accidentally left in the rocker area of the cylinder head during assembly of the engine or possibly dropped into the oil fill opening at some point. Then something wore it down until it fell to the lower timing gear and caused that damage. The noise was probably the nut going round and round doing its damage.

["N8"]

well here are my thoughts.

right now I have 3 heads in my posession the one with the broken valve guide, one disasembled and one other completly asembled. so I have the valve guide probobly coming in tomorrow or the next day. I figure if i try to do this myself and screw this up I have two other heads to fall back on. on top of this nat offerd to turn his grill into an oven for heating the head.

I figure as long as I can use a thermometer to regulate the tempurature precisely it should be fine. I can spend an hour or two preheating the oven and stabalising the temperature and then a couple hours warming the head and then the fsm says just to use a punch to set the valve guide till the retainer clip is seated against the head.

so if I do screw the pooch on this one I can send out the striped head with some good valves to be completly redone and in the mean time use the one that is assembled

this will allow me a crack at fixing this myself and the experence is worth something to me.

maybe this is a stupid idea but I feel that most of what I do is baced on such ideas

o and the noise I was hearing was definatly the piston coming up and smashing the valve guide into the head it was a very distinct noise that was in time with the engine. I think that all that other stuff was just there not doing anything. I asume the PO screwed up the valve cover and put it back on anyway and at some point a watter pump pully nut fell into the engine somehow and I just found it when I tore the block down.

so the only other question I have is should I be worried about other valve guides breaking and what could have caused this to happen other than normal wear and tear?

I dono if I should be looking for something that caused this or if I should be onto the reasembly of the head at this point.

any ideas?

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

No need to heat it up, I've replaced a few just by breaking off the top part that sticks up inside where the valve spring goes (There is a snapring thing, so you have to break it) Then knock it out through the other side. The tricky part is getting the valve to valve guide clearance right.... I forget how you're suposed to do it...