i am stumped

[crushers]

a couple weeks back i did a very stupid thing, i hydrolocked my turbo PZ.
i was in a hole and for the first time in years i paniced and stalled the engien with the front under water. when i turned the key it would only click.
i was dragged fromt eh hole, pulled the injectors and cranked it over getting rid of any water in the combustion system. when i was driving back tot he cabin the truck was putting out a good cloud of blue. i figured it was just dead glow plugs.
fast forward to last weekend. i fired up the PZ at the cabin and it started fine and we went for about a 10 hour run. the cloud chased me the entire way. the engine starts fine, excellent power, no wierd idling or sputtering, lugs great. it feels exactly as it did since i bought it.
there is no water in the oil.
the fuel itself was above water so no contamination there.
one guy says i wrecked my engine to which i say BS, i have killed enough engines to know how that feels.
anotehr one says maybe valve seals which i have a hard time understanding.
another says oil rings but then there is 3 layers of compression rings above that which are not damaged.
the turbo shop wants $450 to rebuild the turbo which is the scenerio that i am considering since the turbo is below the exhuast manifold and was full of water when i pulled the feeder tube from the air box to the turbo.

anyone else have suggestions? Greg, what do you think it is?

cheers

[lshobie]

Is it using oil? Does the exhaust smell like it's burning oil?

[crushers]

no obvious loss of oil.

[FJ40Jim]

Wayne,
Having torn down 2 hydrolocked TDI engines in the last 2 years (don't ask!),
there are usually multiple problems:

When the water impinged on the impeller spinning at 100000rpm and chipped the blades, the turbo is now imbalanced and eats the shaft &seals for lunch.

When the chips of impeller hit the combustion chamber, it chews up the piston tops and valves.

When the water hits the chamber and hydrolocks the cylinder, the rings can shatter and/or ring lands can collapse. In each case, one connecting rod got slightly shorter (about 4mm shy of deckheight), which reduced compression in that cylinder so that fuel was not well combusted, leading to smoke.

The following did NOT happen:
blown headgasket
stretched head studs
bent crankshaft

That's my $.021CAD ($.02USD)

[Greg_B]

Hi Wayne

Bummer...muddy water very abrasive.

Did you actually suck water in when it was running, or stalled it before injesting water, and then it filled up a tad?

Was there water that came out of the injector holes when purged?

Is there more blowby coming from the valve cover vent tube then before?

Do you have compression numbers from before, you can compare to a test if you do them again?

The engine oil was changed right away as well?

If stalled before filling I would start with the turbo too, and go from there. Run a few cans of Lubro-Moly Diesel Purge through as well (direct from the can, and looped back to the can) and see if this changes the exhaust color.

If you have to do a complete teardown, you will want the turbo done anyway, and it will be already done...

Initial thoughts anyway...

hth's

gb

[lshobie]

Bummer to say the least - which truck was it?

[crushers]

this was my new to me bush truck PZJ70.
Greg, yes, it stalled before hydro locking. the story in a nut shell:
"that there is a deep hole"
"how deep?"
"pretty deep"

it was fresh clear water flowing, not muddy. the front end went down to the head lights and i paniced by sticking it in reverse and giving it some fuel. the tractor tires did their job by burying me deeper into the water which caused me to "ooh ooh"i stopped and then remembered don't hold the clutch in when in water or water will get between the disc and the pressure plate and efectivly preventing the clutch from engaging. i was at idle and let the clutch out stalling the engine. the front now was quite deep and the air canister over was not sealed properlyand water got in. i turned the key and click, click.

the turbo is the lowest section of the intake system so it had the most water sitting in it.

i am really suspecting the turbo is pooched as Jim has described. but sicne the turbo was not spinning during the "ooops" i am hoping the impeller blades are still good and that the seals are gone.

Greg,
i have a couple cans of seafoam handy to take with me out to the cabin (2 hours away) so i will try that as a purge. the truck will be coming back to Calgary after the may long for a turbo operation.

cheers

[denis]

I would bet on a bent conrod. Pull the head and see from there. The turbo is probably OK so don't waste your money on a rebuild IMO.

[denis]

BTW I wouldn't drive the truck for fear of further damaging the block and pistons.

[crushers]

why would a bent conrod spew blue smoke?
i have already put some heavy hours wheeling on the engine, if there is damage done it is too late.
since the engine was dead when it hydrolocked i sereiously doubt a bent rod but who knows. if it is a bent rod then she will run till she dies...

[Tapage]

I thought and my bet goes with Turbo issues .. I never hydrolock any engine . .( I hate the water and for sure my snorkel and all has pretty good sealed ) but I thought if your engine are run fine ( no new sounds, and I'm sure all of us know how sound our engines .. )

[crushers]

this is the first time i played with a turbo'd engine in deep water... not a good idea, i guess...

[roscoFJ73]

Maybe you and Jonathon Ferguson have something in common. Read down #10 post

http://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/88332-2l-used-about-1-5-litres-oil-4-hours-so.html

It doesnt sound good Wayne ,have you compression tested it ?

[lowenbrau]

I have hydrolocked my share of 3Bs (none with a turbo) and have never seemed to do any internal damage. I'm going with the bad turbo seals assessment. Yank the turbo and see how it runs without it. Maybe pull the intake runner first to see if its full of oil. It it is, pull the blowby tube to check it for oil.

[crushers]

i also have hydrolocked a few diesels with no damage over the years but never a turbo...
thanks for reminding me bruce, i will check this out over the weekend...

i thank everyone for their suggestions and advice.

cheers

[dieseldog]

My money's on the turbo, Wayne. Sounds like you've gotten around to that from what you've said. Good luck.

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by crushers

this is the first time i played with a turbo'd engine in deep water... not a good idea, i guess...

There might be a lesson in this about mounting the turbo up nice and high in the engine bay. I never thought about it, but a nice hot turbo getting plunged into water can't be a good thing. Not sure if it's the turbo or not, or because water went through the turbo, or because the turbo was quenched.... at leat if it's up high in the engine bay, it's one less possible problem. An interesting thought for future turbo projects.

A bent rod would reduce overall compression. Even if the engine was stopped before locking, there's probably enough torque in the a healthy 24V starter to bend a rod.

I think you start by testing the turbo for oil seal leaks, then off with it's head and take a look inside. A visual inspection in the intake should give you immediate indication if much oil is washing through the turbo.

Peter Straub

[crushers]

another suggestion that was put forth:
quote:
Another possibility could be the injector pump,I was tought that the clearances are very tight in the pump and they should never be sprayed from either a garden hose or submerged in cold water while at operating temp,this causes the body of the pump to contract and possibly score the pump pistons.
end quote

<the person wishes not to be named>

i had not heard this before and now i am curious. is this actually something to be concerned about? since the rotory pumps are relativily new to the Canadian shores i am still on a serious learning curve...

anyone hear or experience this before?

cheers

[lshobie]

My guess is turbo also. The rapid cooling of just about any part of the engine/exhaust might lead to warping and damage - especially the turbo, I was always told to go in slowly to give a chance for things to cool down. Not sure if that would cause a problem to the pump though, it just isn't as hot as the turbo or head. It is something to think about though.

But, I can't see how this could happen really, many cruisers with turbos are submerged often around the world - and we don't hear about many problems especially if they don't inhale water.

The only real difference might be because the engine stopped, maybe turbo heats up because of lack of cooling, then hits cold water causing damage/warping/seal etc.

Will be interesting to find out what it is.

Good luck, and I hope it isn't too expensive for you.

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by crushers

another suggestion that was put forth:
quote:
Another possibility could be the injector pump,I was tought that the clearances are very tight in the pump and they should never be sprayed from either a garden hose or submerged in cold water while at operating temp,this causes the body of the pump to contract and possibly score the pump pistons.
end quote

This is a Dodge/Cummins problem that is somewhat well known, and specific to the late '90's Bosch rotary pumps. The new common rail is said to be more robust, and the old in-line pumps are practically indestructable. A hot engine (i.e. pulling a big trailer on the highway kind of hot) can suffer this damage from splashing through the wrong puddle.

I delibertly let TippyR idle for 10 minutes before plunging the hot engine into 'Deep Creek' at the Alberta Safari Company. I wasn't concerned about injection pump per se, but the engine was running near the red on the temp gauge for the previous 10 minutes while TippyR was testing the outer reaches of the power band on the 3B.

There's enough experience with the inline pumps from the 3B's that would indicate that this isn't a problem with those devices. It's an interesting idea that I certainly wouldn't dismiss. These rotary pumps are fairly new to some of us, and probably fairly new to the type of abuse that we in the OHV community inflict on them.

Peter Straub

[crushers]

Originally Posted by lshobie

I was always told to go in slowly to give a chance for things to cool down. Not sure if that would cause a problem to the pump though, it just isn't as hot as the turbo or head. It is something to think about though.
Good luck, and I hope it isn't too expensive for you.

the egt was below 400F at the time... i was idling around...

ihope it is something simple as well...

[lshobie]

400 isn't too bad, I don't think that should have caused much problems. Did you check your sedimenter and filter?

[crushers]

what am i checking for? the fuel cap was well above the water line and the rest of the system is a seal unit...

hummm....

[lshobie]

I had a few deep water crossings in a bj42 once, got the clutch wet - like you talked about, and although the engine never died I ended up with water in teh separator. - no idea how just ended up there.

I just try to eliminate everything.

[crushers]

okay, the seperator oin the old BJ42s is down on the frame, on the PZ they are up on the fender and are part of the fuel filter...
i can understand what you are saying... in the 42 i am curious as to how you got water int eh seperator unless the fuel cap was under the water as well...
cheers

[lshobie]

Well, the whole truck was under water, atleast over the hood. I suspect a hole in the top of the gas tank, leak in the fuel sender gasket etc. My filler cap was tight as far as I know.

On a separate event I was with a new jeep yj, he took water in also, it came in from a leaky gasket on top of the fuel tank.

[Tapage]

At this time ( and all that we need to pull