Front Axle: Races and Bushings

Randy88FJ62 · 10-28-09, 11:21 AM

How many people have installed new outer bearing races on the top and bottom of their axle housing when doing a knuckle rebuild? I assume most do not because there is usually not a lot of wear on the race surface and this means that the new bearings should do just fine resting on the old races.

How about the knuckle spindle bushing? The spindles looks like they have a vital role in the runout of the axle shaft and play would mean the inner axle seal would fail sooner. I’ve heard that the MC Seals I have yet to install work well, but can they accommodate so many worn parts in the front axle?

These two questions came about because I am rebuilding my front axle and I found out that since my knuckles came from one truck and my axle housing from another that the shims are not adjusted properly. Also add in that the steering arms have changed to hysteer arms which have new and different lengths which play a factor in the placement of the bearings. Thankfully a local club member has the infamous knuckle centering SST so it’s nothing but time now.

GLTHFJ60 · 10-28-09, 11:31 AM

When I rebuilt my front axle I replace the races, but not the spindle bushing. It is not included in any of the regular rebuild kits so I basically ignored it.

The new bearings come with races, so why not replace them anyway?

Randy88FJ62 · 10-28-09, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLTHFJ60

When I rebuilt my front axle I replace the races, but not the spindle bushing. It is not included in any of the regular rebuild kits so I basically ignored it.

The new bearings come with races, so why not replace them anyway?

I did not see any races in my rebuild kit. I'll have to check for them. If I have them then i agree with you that it should be done. The spindle bushing would be harder to replace as it requires an SST which I assume means I can use a generic puller to get it out if needed.

GLTHFJ60 · 10-28-09, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy88FJ62

I did not see any races in my rebuild kit. I'll have to check for them. If I have them then i agree with you that it should be done. The spindle bushing would be harder to replace as it requires an SST which I assume means I can use a generic puller to get it out if needed.

There should be a matching race for every new bearing in the rebuild kit. The races come in the box with each bearing.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-28-09, 11:56 AM

I haven't opened the boxes with the individual bearings in them yet so that would explain not seeing the races. Any special tools to install them or just a cyliner with the same diameter and hammer them in?

ntsqd · 10-28-09, 12:27 PM

The lower races do see wear. They Brinnell and create a 'detent' that makes the knuckle really want to go straight. I'd say replacing them is mandatory.

GLTHFJ60 · 10-28-09, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy88FJ62

I haven't opened the boxes with the individual bearings in them yet so that would explain not seeing the races. Any special tools to install them or just a cyliner with the same diameter and hammer them in?

No special tools required. I used a steel punch and a 3lb steel hammer to punch them out, just the hammer to put them in. They are wicked hard so you can really hammer on them and they won't be messed up at all. Just make sure you hammer them in all the way and be careful that you don't hammer it in crooked.

Kurtis · 10-28-09, 12:37 PM

I would replace them while your at it but make sure you get the races seated properly so you can get the preload adjusted right.

IH8Wood · 10-28-09, 01:19 PM

I've always heard that a race and bearing are mated and should only be replaced as pair.

Moby · 10-28-09, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IH8Wood

I've always heard that a race and bearing are mated and should only be replaced as pair.

Correct - bearing and races are matched. They should be replaced as a set.

Spike Strip · 10-28-09, 01:53 PM

Randy, if you bought the rebuild kit with knuckle bearings, the races are in the box with the bearing. New bearings = new races.

Do all the bearings.

The bronze bushing I left alone because it opens up a different can of worms if you replace it. IIRC, I believe it has to be honed.... ? But not sure. Don't remember exactly what the procedure is.

But I think there's a measurement in the FSM if you're concerned.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-28-09, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike Strip

Randy, if you bought the rebuild kit with knuckle bearings, the races are in the box with the bearing. New bearings = new races.

Do all the bearings.

The bronze bushing I left alone because it opens up a different can of worms if you replace it. IIRC, I believe it has to be honed.... ? But not sure. Don't remember exactly what the procedure is.

But I think there's a measurement in the FSM if you're concerned.

You think I figured out all these fancy names for parts without looking at the FSM?

Looks like I'll do the races as they came with the kit and leave the spindle alone unless it is abnormaly out of tolerance.

Spike Strip · 10-28-09, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy88FJ62

You think I figured out all these fancy names for parts without looking at the FSM?

Yes.

lehiguy · 10-28-09, 03:27 PM

Toyota has cast recesses under those races to make them easy to knock out from the opposide side of the axle. There really is no reason not to, and yes, they do wear. In fact, the wear is much more discernable on the outer race than on the rollers or anything else.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-28-09, 03:45 PM

My next question is regarding an axle housing from one truck and a knuckle from another truck. This means that the shims will have to be redone correct? Even with the exact knuckle and housing from the same truck I will have to redo the shims because the hysteer arms, correct? Hysteer arms have a different rod attached than the stock arms and that length may cause a difference.

I'll have to ask cruiser drew if he redid his shims after installing hysteer arms. I guess the best way to check would be to get calipers out and compare the old arms and the new arms to see how much difference there is.

Kurtis · 10-28-09, 06:14 PM

I had to redo my shims when installing the marlin high steer kit on mine. With the marlin arms my knuckles had no prelaod with the stock shims so I had to remove some shims top and bottom.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-29-09, 12:15 PM

Has anyone ever replaced the bushings inside the knuckle spindles? If so, was honing after install required? Spikestrip alludes to honing which I assume is to make sure the ID is concentric with the OD od the spindle?

Godwin · 10-29-09, 12:50 PM

I have once but I don't remember why and I probably did not need to. With a part time 4WD system and with the front hubs seldom engaged these bushings shouldn't see much wear, unlike the full-time system of the 80 series. But if you have new bushings on hand I think you can just slide them onto the axle stub to check the fit prior to installation into the spindle and thus see whether honing is needed or not.

Moby · 10-29-09, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwin

I have once but I don't remember why and I probably did not need to. With a part time 4WD system and with the front hubs seldom engaged these bushings shouldn't see much wear, unlike the full-time system of the 80 series. But if you have new bushings on hand I think you can just slide them onto the axle stub to check the fit prior to installation into the spindle and thus see whether honing is needed or not.

FSM has measurements that indicate if this bushing is worn enough to warrant replacement.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-29-09, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moby

FSM has measurements that indicate if this bushing is worn enough to warrant replacement.

And if it requires replacement, does the new bushing have to be installed then honed to have proper concentricity?

Rigger · 10-29-09, 02:32 PM

Good questions, Randy.

I'll add my $0.02 to the mix:

Bearings: When I did my FJ62 axle rebuild, I replaced every race/bearing set. It was expensive. I looked at each race/bearing set as I removed them, and I saw no wear at all in any of them. I replaced them all because I had already bought new ones, and I did not really know any better. I basically did the same thing on my '40 axle a few months ago.

If I had to do these again, I would pull everything apart, inspect everything, and then replace only the ones that needed to be replaced, and just clean and repack the others.

Shimming and centering: I have done some reading about this topic. I think that an off-center axle might wear the seal prematurely, but thats about it. This is my hypothesis, and I am testing my hypothesis as follows:

When I did my '40 axle, I started with a used axle. One side was missing some of the shims, so I could not just put it back together the way it was. The axle had been partially dismantled and I bought it in that condition. On re-assembly, I kind of eyeballed it, shimmed it by feel, checked the preload, and went with it. The only precaution I took was that I used the Marlin seal, which I understand can tolerate an off-center axle more than a stock seal can. I will see what results I get with it. A serious mechanic would have shuddered at what I did, but I think too much is made of the centering. I think an axle can be off-center a bit without any dire consequences. I'm no expert, but that's my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'll find out when I start running this axle in my '40.

Bushings: I did not replace any bushings.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-29-09, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rigger

Good questions, Randy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rigger

I'll add my $0.02 to the mix:

Bearings: When I did my FJ62 axle rebuild, I replaced every race/bearing set. It was expensive. I looked at each race/bearing set as I removed them, and I saw no wear at all in any of them. I replaced them all because I had already bought new ones, and I did not really know any better. I basically did the same thing on my '40 axle a few months ago.

If I had to do these again, I would pull everything apart, inspect everything, and then replace only the ones that needed to be replaced, and just clean and repack the others.

Shimming and centering: I have done some reading about this topic. I think that an off-center axle might wear the seal prematurely, but thats about it. This is my hypothesis, and I am testing my hypothesis as follows:

When I did my '40 axle, I started with a used axle. One side was missing some of the shims, so I could not just put it back together the way it was. The axle had been partially dismantled and I bought it in that condition. On re-assembly, I kind of eyeballed it, shimmed it by feel, checked the preload, and went with it. The only precaution I took was that I used the Marlin seal, which I understand can tolerate an off-center axle more than a stock seal can. I will see what results I get with it. A serious mechanic would have shuddered at what I did, but I think too much is made of the centering. I think an axle can be off-center a bit without any dire consequences. I'm no expert, but that's my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'll find out when I start running this axle in my '40.

Bushings: I did not replace any bushings.

Rigger,
I'm interested to see over time how your seals do. If the one side does end up leaking earlier you should let us know.

The whole reason behind these questions is that my front axle is sitting in pieces. What are a few more hours of work if the end result is an axle that doesn’t have to be touched for a longer period of time? The other plus is, going through every part in the axle gives me a sense of accomplishment and helps me understand the axle better so I am prepared for trail repairs when I break something. Before completely disassembling my free wheel hubs I had no idea what was going on inside there. Now I understand it completely and can take them apart and reassemble them in minutes.

It also scares me that if I took a front axle rebuild job to a mechanic. I doubt they would ever get so involved. The P.O. of my 62 had his front knuckles rebuilt at a cost of $750 to him. Within less than a year I had a leaky axle seal. Goes to show you that these old cruisers take a lot of maintenance and time to keep tip top or a lot of money to have a mechanic do it for you. And even if a mechanic is doing it, you better know him well or he better know crusiers well.

Current Question:
How many people have ever replaced the knuckle spindle bushings? Or a better question is how many people have checked or even cared. Before I read the FSM I had no idea there was a wearable bushing inside the spindle.

ntsqd · 10-29-09, 04:46 PM

I've casually checked mine the previous couple of times that I had the knuckles open. No measurements taken, just a wobble test and a visual inspection of the ID of the bushing for unusual wear. Never felt like they needed replacing so this last time with the Mini's front I didn't even bother wobbling them. ID's looked good, so I moved on.

I'm sympathetic to where I think you're coming from as that was the approach that I took with this Mini front axle project, but I'd advise not worrying about those bushings too much. I always slather them with whatever grease I've used in the Birf's on assembly and call them good.

KLF · 10-29-09, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy88FJ62

How many people have ever replaced the knuckle spindle bushings? Or a better question is how many people have checked or even cared. Before I read the FSM I had no idea there was a wearable bushing inside the spindle.

I have replaced quite a few of them, even did a pair once on an 80-series.

The way I check them is to clean everything up well, then put a light coat of oil on that part of the Birfield that mates to the bushing, slide them together as a test fit. If it spins easily with no wobble, then you're fine, don't replace them. But if there's any noticable wobble, then it's a good idea to replace them. You are correct that once worn, the inner axle shaft will no longer run true and it will prematurely wear out that inner axle seal, spoiling that time-consuming and expensive knuckle service you just finished.

How I get them out: I initially did this job with a really long punch that I found at Sears, but I ground the tip just a little to put a slight bevel on it. Set the spindle on a pair of wooden blocks, on the ground, and reach down thru the spindle with the long punch and slowly tap it out. It can take considerable force to get it to move. Hit it like you mean it, but not enough to cause the punch to gouge into the inside of the spindle and ruin it. Eventually I made a tool on the lathe that just barely reaches thru the spindle but catches the bushing, I push them out on my press.

Putting them in: put the new bushing in the freezer, and warm up the spindle as hot as you can stand to hold on to it. Get the cold bushing, set it on a chunk of wood on the floor, give it a squirt of lube, something like WD-40, then tap (use a plastic-faced mallet) the spindle down over the bushing, as quickly as possible before the heat transfers.

Now, honing. Yes, this is sometimes needed, but not always. AFTER (not before) you get the new bushing pressed into the spindle, do another test fit with the Birfield. It should spin freely and smooth with no wobble. If it feels tight or binds at all, then it needs to be honed. If you don't do this, it will sieze to the Birfield and spin in the spindle, and grind/growl/squeel, make all sorts of ugly noises. I chuck the spindle in a vise, hone it with a brake hone with soft stones in a drill, and plenty of cutting oil. Do a lot of test fits, take your time. Hose it out well with brakekleen when it's done to get all the abrasive stuff out of there.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-30-09, 08:25 AM

Let's hope ntsqd is right and no replacement is needed. Thank you everyone for answering all of my questions.
-Randy

ntsqd · 10-30-09, 09:54 AM

It's not that replacement is not ever needed, just that IME it is rare. So inspect and wobble them, but don't loose sleep over it. If they do need replacement I have the tools to do the work and to make the special tools needed.

lehiguy · 10-30-09, 10:03 AM

When my brother did the spindle bushings in his mini truck , he did need to have the ID honed. The stealership claimed to have done it, but evidently did not, because the birfield stub shaft seized up in the new bushing. The stealership ended up replacing that for free.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-30-09, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lehiguy

When my brother did the spindle bushings in his mini truck , he did need to have the ID honed. The stealership claimed to have done it, but evidently did not, because the birfield stub shaft seized up in the new bushing. The stealership ended up replacing that for free.

Ouch.

Randy88FJ62 · 10-30-09, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntsqd

It's not that replacement is not ever needed, just that IME it is rare. So inspect and wobble them, but don't loose sleep over it. If they do need replacement I have the tools to do the work and to make the special tools needed.

I'm not losing sleep over it. I just like making sure everything is going to work when I put it all back together. I have access to a machine shop as well so if I do end up needed to make anything I'll be calling and asking a few questions.

ntsqd · 10-30-09, 11:24 AM

:thumbsup: