TBI Swap

Kurtis · 06-23-09, 09:04 PM

I made it to the junkyard today and all I can say is it sure beats getting all this stuff at the parts store. For $31 and some change I walked out with a transmission cooler oil cooler 2 vssb/drac speed buffer units and the wiring pigtail for the coil to the harness and tach as well as the wiring from coil to distributor. I had $240 bugeted for all of these little items so I'm happy how that turned out. I picked up a good set of plug wires and went down to Arizona TPI and bought a fuel pump setup and the fuel fittings. This wasn't cheap at $220 just for my fuel setup but I really liked the guys down there great service and they know their stuff. The pump was around $130 and $40 more for the kit with a filter before and after. The fittings were around $40 but they do look cool. They are a pretty good source for anything TBI/TPI up to LS engine related and very willing to answer any questions. I can't wait to get this thing going and I ended up being able to take tommorrow off so It should run. I am still waiting on advance adaptors but I can at least get everything in and running ready to go for the transfer case.

Kurtis · 06-23-09, 11:58 PM

This is to anyone who has swapped keeping emissions did you pull the canister from a junkyard or does the Land Cruiser Canister work alright?

Kurtis · 06-24-09, 12:02 AM

Ill post up some pictures of the progress in the morning.

ntsqd · 06-24-09, 09:48 AM

The KA rule for pre- OBD II is that what is on the engine stays on the engine and what is one the chassis stays on the chassis unless something on the engine renders it obsolete. I read somewhere that the canisters are sized to the fuel tank capacity. If the OE canister is still working I'd use it.

Kurtis · 06-25-09, 01:50 PM

As far as wiring the starter I get the starter gets power from the battery one wire comes from my old wiring to the solenoid but what goes to the other solinoid connection? can I just bring 12v to this it seems to be something for a neutral safety switch correct?

Kurtis · 06-25-09, 03:11 PM

This is Killing me.. So as far as the starter goes the old toyota only had 2 connections? as far as I can tell. The new chevy has 1 for the positive cable and two others. Do I need something on both of these...? I would think just to test out the starter I would just need the one hooked up. Any advice/pictures would be much appreciated this thing is pretty much ready to finish the rest of the wiring if I can get this figured otu.

Kurtis · 06-25-09, 05:25 PM

So I tested my starter and its good there is power there from the land cruiser wire. When the old starter wrie from the land cruiser is connected to the starter and I turn the key the battery meter drops all the way down and nothing happens. I test this wire and when the key is to start it gets twelve volts. but when Connected to the starter it wont turn the starter. If I take a screwdriver and connect the big terminal to the small terminal it turns over but it wont turn over with the key. Is the original wire to small for the chevy starter? I'm lost any help is appreciated.

Elbert · 06-25-09, 07:32 PM

the starter on my vortec has two wires....one is the main battery cable, the other feeds the solnoid. If you are having to jump the starter to get it to work....is the solnoid bad? Are you connected to the right side of the solnoid? IF you engage the ign and try to start and battery guage goes all the way down.... potentially sounds like a direct short in the starter itself, assuming good connections and battery.

Kurtis · 06-25-09, 09:55 PM

Thanks Elbert what I ended up doing was running a second solenoid from a small car starter with the land cruiser ignition wire and a direct wire to the starter with the second solenoid inbetween. Apparently the ignition in the Land Cruiser isn't enough for the Chevy solenoid. Turned over beautifully after this. Tomorrow is the real test I'll hook up the oil cooler and the ecu I did the wiring for these and I'll see if it will run. for just a few seconds before I put everhything else back together.

Elbert · 06-26-09, 05:22 AM

think about that for a few.... main battery cable supplies the power...the small wire is just the trigger as I recall. I don't think its anything to do with the 12volt signal from the Yota, because those either work or they don't, it does not have some variable signal.

Kurtis · 06-26-09, 08:07 AM

Yea It seems strange but where I got the idea was the advanced adaptors book they said something about it. I guess the solenoid must be to large for the Toyota ingnition wire. I guess closing that solenoid does take a fair amount of electricity. Possibly my starter solenoid is worn and requires more juice? The original wire 2 that starter solenoid was 10 gauge though and I'm pretty sure the Land Cruiser was originally 12-14. I don't believe the new starters on the vortec are as large i'm not sure but it does work with this setup. .

lehiguy · 06-26-09, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurtis

Thanks Elbert what I ended up doing was running a second solenoid from a small car starter with the land cruiser ignition wire and a direct wire to the starter with the second solenoid inbetween. Apparently the ignition in the Land Cruiser isn't enough for the Chevy solenoid. Turned over beautifully after this. Tomorrow is the real test I'll hook up the oil cooler and the ecu I did the wiring for these and I'll see if it will run. for just a few seconds before I put everhything else back together.

That's weird, I have had a 350 in for the last seven years and I have never had that problem. My block is a Gen II with the smaller, gear reduction starter, maybe that's why.

lehiguy · 06-26-09, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntsqd

The KA rule for pre- OBD II is that what is on the engine stays on the engine and what is one the chassis stays on the chassis unless something on the engine renders it obsolete. I read somewhere that the canisters are sized to the fuel tank capacity. If the OE canister is still working I'd use it.

IIRC, the Toyota canister used an electrical actuation. The Chevy is simply hooked up to ported vacuum with one hose going to the tank, the other is a vent, or a source of fresh air to purge the canister. This should have a filter of some kind on it, like a fuel filter to keep crud out of the canister. The hookups are clearly labeled on the Chevy's canisters, I think it would be a better choice, since you will not likely have the ability to actuate the stock purge valve once you toss the 2F and it's related circuits.

Kurtis · 06-27-09, 10:32 AM

I grabbed a canister from the junkyard and hooked it up just to make the startup as easy as possible. Well It turns over and pops off but wont stay running. I think the timing is off still or its a computer issue. On a scary note it shot a flame out the throttle body which makes me really think the timing is off. I'm going on vacation So I guess I'll get to trouble shoot this when I get back. I really hoped I could get this going before I left but thats how it goes. Any suggestions? I put the cylinder at top dead center hooked up the wires according to the casting the first time and nothing would happen, so I pulled the dizzy flipped it 180 and also set at top dead center and now it will sputter and or pop off. The strange part that makes me think it could be the compute is itl pop a little then i'll stop give it a little gas and then itl sputter once a little bit. What I don't get is every once and a while in between starting attemps I can give it some gas and the injectors will pump in some fuel and then it really pops off. I notice their pumping because of the sound they make. It will only do this in between every few starting attempts though... Hmm.. any suggestions. It does sound mean when it does pop off though I'm going to like a v8.

Kurtis · 06-27-09, 10:44 AM

Here is Some of the progress

Kurtis · 06-27-09, 10:45 AM

One more of the fuel pump

Kurtis · 06-27-09, 10:48 AM

I still have some cleaning up to do in the engine bay as well as putting the front back together. As long as advanced adaptors gets me the adaptor by the time I get back and I can get the engine running correctly I'll be in business.

Kurtis · 06-27-09, 11:03 AM

When I get home I will clean up the intstallation and try to trouble shoot whats going on and put the front clip back together.That way if I need to tow it over to a shop and have them trouble shoot it for me its all back together. When I get a chance i'll make a list of part numbers I used and all the little things for anybody who is interested in a swap and a cost sheet of what I've spent so far. TBI defiantly has its limitations but they can make around 300 hp without to much money being spent and also put out around 400lbs of torque doing it while being a very simple injection setup. I'm probably going to run the stock setup for a while until I understand everything a little better then have the engine built when my bank account has time to catch up. One other question?
Where is the best place to get an adaptor for the power steering line?

Elbert · 06-27-09, 05:45 PM

TBI timing is set to 0 degrees with wire disconnected....

fittings

http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wa...-fittings.html

ntsqd · 06-28-09, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lehiguy

IIRC, the Toyota canister used an electrical actuation. The Chevy is simply hooked up to ported vacuum with one hose going to the tank, the other is a vent, or a source of fresh air to purge the canister. This should have a filter of some kind on it, like a fuel filter to keep crud out of the canister. The hookups are clearly labeled on the Chevy's canisters, I think it would be a better choice, since you will not likely have the ability to actuate the stock purge valve once you toss the 2F and it's related circuits.

That being the case then the GM canister would clearly be the preferred choice unless OBD II in which case the ECU can drive the canister purge valve (though the impedances may be different so caution would be advised).

cruiserbrett · 06-29-09, 12:36 AM

1227747 ecms also have a crank trigger signal that lets the ECM know that the engine is in crank mode and consequently changes the fuel tables. might be one of the wires to the starter for the gm harness.

lehiguy · 06-29-09, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruiserbrett

1227747 ecms also have a crank trigger signal that lets the ECM know that the engine is in crank mode and consequently changes the fuel tables. might be one of the wires to the starter for the gm harness.

That is correct. There is a wire hooked to the switched wire leading to the solenoid. There is also an oil pressure switch that is threaded into the back of the block. The fuel pump relay will prime the pump and then shut off. The power to the fuel pump on a stock harness goes through that switch as a safely mechanism to stop fuel flow if the vehicle crashes and the motor dies. Obviously, it can also save your motor in the event of a loss of oil pressure. So make sure you have power to your pump. I assume you also know to disconnect the tan wire to the distributor before attempting to change the timing. If you don't, it will go nuts.

Kurtis · 07-02-09, 09:59 PM

Well I got home from vacation today and couldnt help but play around with it a little. I timed it with a gun with the wire disconnected. It will pop off spraradicly but wont stay running after it fires off. I have an odd number ecm that came with the motor. 16168625. It just doesnn't seem to be getting gas after fires or something. After I work tommorrow I'm going to clean up the install change the distributor cap since thats stilll original. Any other suggestions? The timing is on the fuel pump kicks on with the key and is running for a few seconds after I've cranked it over.

Kurtis · 07-03-09, 11:21 AM

Changed the Cap didn't really make a difference. The wires are new and i'm getting spark when I turn it over. I'm thinking it must be my ecm at this point.

Elbert · 07-03-09, 11:22 AM

Do you have power to your ECM and all sensors connected and wired? That has to be your first step to get the thing to run at all. You have to get the timing at TDC #1....to start, then once running you set timing at 0 degrees, with wire discounteced. If its poping bad up through the throttle body your base timng is off most likly. I asuume you had the distributor out of the engine at some point ? or no? And assuming the v-8 ran before you installed it.

Elbert · 07-03-09, 11:23 AM

if you have spark, do you have fuel?.

Kurtis · 07-03-09, 11:33 AM

I had the Distrubitor out when I did the intake gaskets. It ran well before. The Ecm is wired up per the instructions on the harness. 1 wire from the harness straight to the battery one to the ignition. All sensors are hooked up. as well as the grounds. To time it I disconnected distribitutor wire , the harness had a disconnect for this, put the engine at TDC #1 cylinder at top checked with compression gauge and then also visual, replaced plug turned over checked with timing light until it was at 0. While I'm cranking the injectors are spitting fuel out. Once it pops off I cant tell if the pump is shutting off or not. I'm assuming its is since it wont keep running.

Kurtis · 07-03-09, 11:36 AM

Any other Ideas other than ECU? I only have to work for a couple hours today then I ll get back at it.

Elbert · 07-03-09, 12:02 PM

Remove power to distirbutor / coil so truck cant start. Remove #1 plug..., place thumb over #1 plug hole, just engacge engine starter very breifly (bump) to get engine to turn over a little bit at the time, until you feel compression at your thumb (does not take but a couple of times of bumping the starter). Once you feel the compression with your thumb....stop and see where the timing mark is on the harmonic balancer...if you are reasonably close to where the timing mark is a zero, stop and connect all your stuff back together. Makeing sure the distributor is pointing to #1 plug wire. Connect all your stuff and see if engine starts (to include your wire for timing)... You should be able to start...if no start or runs like crap move distributor very minor to make adjustment where engine will idle and starts. Check for codes at ECM. Let it run and idle stablize...watching to make sure your radiator is full and so forth.

Then once engine starts.... go back and set base timing.

The ECM only controls timing when the engine is running....

You set base or mechanical timing in the ballbark to get it started....then once running decent you go back and disconect the wire and set timing to zero, and plug wire back up. The ECM is then in control of the timing. THe ECM has a baseline of zero degrees ....it does not know if you have set it wrong or not, so it assumes a baseline of zero degrees and alters the advance based on that. So if mechanical timing is off the ECM only makes that worse once it starts, because it has no way (on TBI engines) to know what the base timeing is actually at.

You don't have get base timing exact for the truck to start, since you have some room to adjust by moving the distributor around. But once running base timing needs to be set to zero degrees off #1 cylinder.

minor poping is a sign that timing is off.... major poping is a sign that you could be 180 degrees off on your base timing setup, or can be a sign the camshaft is hosed (but most likely not the case here as you said engine ran ok previously).

Double check your timing process. ON TBI engines you have to have the ECM that matches with the engine and the transmission. IE if a manual trans is used you need the specific ECM for that setup, if automatic used you need that specific ECM. If you have the same trans that came with the engine you are using and the ECM matches that combination or better yet it came from that vehicle then you shoudld be good. If not then you got problems. ECM+Engine+trans work as a team.. Since these ECMs are nto programmable...you have to make sure all of this matches up. I know they can burn chips... but if you are running all stock with all sensors you should be fine with the right ECM that matches with the engine and trans.

Kurtis · 07-03-09, 12:55 PM

Thanks Elbert for all the help I really appreciate it. I went threw again and checked the timing this morning just as your directions stated and in the daylight I noticed when its cranking gas is pumping in there ok but when It fires off it actually seems to spray less gas in fact it almost stops spraying gas so I must have some problem with the fuel delivery. the oil sensor is new so I wouldn't think that would be it but can I bypass this to check? I know this sensor cuts power to the fuel pump right? either that or something with my ecm i guess. The computer though is as you said truck had 5.7 to 4l60e which is the exact setup I have with the original computer.