free tbi 350! but now i need help...

[Nemesis Gnat]

so im just about done with a desmog on my 2f, and had been hoping to pull off a swap sometime in the future when i had a lil more knowledge... but

out wheelin yesterday, a friend of a friend mentioned that he had an 83 suburban with a tbi 350 and a turbo 400. he said the tranny was just rebuilt, and that the motor burns oil and likely needs a rebuild, but runs well otherwise... the best part, he said i can have it all for free if i wanted it.

so heres what im wondering... first of all, im new to the whole chevy thing, but i know my 60 pretty well, and i learn extremely well. if i say something dumb, bear with me, im learning and im willing to take the time to learn how to do this the right way.

so, when i go to take a look at the car to figure out if its worth the trouble of towing to my garage, other than the obvious, what am i lookin for regarding the motor? are there common problems with these motors that i should look out for? i plan on using my stock 4 speed for now (h55 in the future), so ill be selling everything from the burban (along with my baja bug) to help fund this lil endeavor. what kinda money am i looking at, with me doing the work, to give the motor a good rebuild?

also, from what i can tell, the tbi being a relatively simple motor it should be a relatively simple swap, right? im lookin at the marks kit to adapt it to my 4 speed, will my toyota clutch be able to handle the v8?

other than the adaptor, the marks kit somes with a flywheel, oil pressure and water temp sender adaptors, and other small parts. i know ill also need motor mounts (marks sells some... eh?). other than that, im not sure what ill need...

will my gas pedal work with the chevy throttle body (i assume ill need some sort of custom cable)? the tbi wiring should be pretty simple, no? will i be able to run my current brake and booster set up? will my stock radiator work? power steering? this is about where my knowledge runs out, and where im hoping the mud community will kick in with a crash course, cause this oppurtunity seems too good to pass up...

thanks for readin all that and for any help!

[Nemesis Gnat]

well i just spent a few more hours reading old threads and it cleared some things up, but...

-still need to know if there are any common problems or quirks that im looking for with the 350 before i decide if i want it, also maybe a general estimate on what it costs to rebuild it (maybe with a more torquey cam or something while im in there)

-seems like the marks kit is simple as simple can be for this, so i need to know if theres an advantage to running either a chevy clutch or toy clutch over the other

-still dont know too much about wiring it up, things like vacuum for the brake booster, throttle linkage, and other details

-as for position motor mounts... seems like i bolt it up to my tranny/tc, throw it in there, something about a 3/4 inch offset to d/s, then tack it, measure it, measure it again, once more, then weld away?

-do things like my stock heater hoses hook up to the 350 somehow?

sorry for yet another sbc thread, and even more seemingly dumb questions, but this was something that i hadnt even planned on learning about for a while... but when oppurtunity knocks...

one last thing, im smog exempt, and i dont want no smog stuff on this new motor... i dunno what all an 83 suburban has on it yet, but while the motor is between cars, ill be stripping off what i dont need... what i dont know is what exactly i dont need and if itll change anything regarding the swap... maybe i should check out this motor first and see what its got eh?

[Elbert]

Hello,

I don't know any real problems with a TBI 350, I would make sure and change the intake gasket. The only problem I know with the TBI engines is that they don't make that much horsepower and there's not much you can do about it. Most of those enignes have the the (base timing) set at 0 degrees and they are real senstitive to anything +- off that mark. I think the TBI 350 would be a great swap.

I would run the GM clutch and flywheel...assuming you run a manaul trans, I would run one of the TBI 350 engines that does not have a smog pump, I belive the non-CA versions do not have a smog pump. MY 92 GM 1500 pickup TBI 350 does not have a smog pump.

Make sure you grab the ECM from the truck the engine is from. You will need to also buy a wiring harness from a shop like painless or others to make the engine run.

TBI engines are the simplest of the GM fuel injection engines to setup, they are very dependable and once you get one running right you'll have no problems, they don't have that many sensors, they only down side is the limited performance potential, but given that I think they make a great swap.

Look through the other SBC swap threads.... there are many points that would apply to your swap. You need a different throttle cable. I would remove the entire engine along with eveything under the hood connected to the engine. You need two adapters for the p/s hose, you will need to have a custome p/s hose made but any place can do that. Cooling is an issue if you have a 4 core raiator you should be good. Read through the threads... If you plan to run a clutch fan you need to make sure you will have room to do so.

[rchalmers3]

NG,

Dude, you bring the Suburban home yet? Congratulations on your free HP score!! Man, I'd love to have a small block to put in my parts "bank".

If I can give you one valuable opinion, it is that SBC conversions have been done many times and there is wisdom here and out in the world regarding the specific solutions to such things as cables, linkages motor mounts and so on. You have no worries, all there is to do is to learn where to ask questions!

What's cool is that you have a complete Suburban to use as a test bench. You now have the perfect opportunity to perform a reliable conversion with a predictable outcome the first time. Any repairs or modifications to the motor can be done and tested in the Suburban before removal for the conversion.

I won't try to answer any of your specific questions but I do want to say to you that it is not necessary to know everything before beginning. Learn what you can, but don't be paralyzed by not knowing every detail beforehand! Take your time and find solutions to obstacles as they present themselves.

I'm stoked for you bro, and waiting for my free SBC to show up in my life!

EDIT: I have put a 4.3L TBI where it didn't belong, so I do have some experience. I bought very little "stuff" to make it happen and have a good running vehicle to show for it. I'll be looking forward to watching your project!

Rick

[lehiguy]

The swap to SBC is fairly easy. There are things that need to be understood in priciple, like how the coolant circulates through a heater, how a stater is wired, how the plumbing goes on power steering that will make life easier. Be aware that a 1983 Suburban did not come from the factory with a TBI system. The TBI debut was in 1987 so somebody has done a conversion on your suburban. I reccomend taking the wire harness and relays from the truck as well as the motor. The Mark's bellhousing adapter works well and uses all Chevy clutch components other than the the release bearing and your slave cylinder. If you use a Chevy trans, you will have issues with shifter placement and/or motor location. The exception to this is using an GM auto or an NV4500 which has the shift tower on the rear of the top cover making it easier to have the motor in the right place and the shifter as well. Performance wise, there were no outstanding TBI Chevys, they ran flawlessly, but only made 220 HP at best. That can be remedied depending on your willingness to open up your wallet. One source of some interesting information can be found at www.tbichips.com I'm doing TBI later this year on my existing 350 that will be easily 300 horse or more, and 400 pounds of torque. Good luck.

[Nemesis Gnat]

sweet thanks guys!

ya i am planning on this being a good learning experience, and i have an 84 toy pick up to drive while the cruiser is apart, so i got the time to make it right

im trying to figure out a time right now to go look at the burb, so i still dont know toooo much about, just what has been described to me from the guy... the whole 83 not being tbi yet interests me... its possible that hes converted it, but i think its more likely i got the year wrong somehow... ill be sure to figure that out...

and yes im gonna grab the whole car

talk to me a lil bit about the power issues with this motor... its still got a good amount more than the 2f, and im not lookin for a race car, just some good torquey grunt and the ability to pull freeways speeds (or atleast more than 30mph) up over the continental divide... but talk some tech to me about why this is the way it is

ahh im excited

[Elbert]

THe TBI motor will make plenty of power to use in the LC. As I related my 92 K1500 pickup has one and if it can push that thing around it will do a fine job on the LC. I don't consider the lack of HP and issue with this kind of swap, just wanted you to know that in general TBI motors don't respond to normal Hot Rod mods that well.. Mainly due to the intake manifold. Imagine a two barrel intake for a V-8 and you can picture the size of the air way on a TBI intake. TBI motors are limited in the air and fuel department...ie the intake the fuel injectors are not designed for performance. You are limited in the area of what you can do to the ECM that controls the fuel injection. That being said I would not hestitate at all with running a TBI engine in a LC. Its far cheaper than a vortec, simpler, and eaiser to work on. I do think on a TBI engine you will need a ECM from a manual tranmission equipped GM truck. YOu can't modify or program the ECM in those year models the same as you can with the newer style trucks. The old ECM has CHIP that has to be custom made.

If it were me I would run a purely stock TBI 350, and find an ECM from a manual trans truck, and a appropriate wiring harness and let her rip... You'll have a truck that's easy to maintain, easy to troubleshoot and will make reasonable power all day and idle all day too, without issue.

[lehiguy]

Originally Posted by Nemesis Gnat

sweet thanks guys!

ya i am planning on this being a good learning experience, and i have an 84 toy pick up to drive while the cruiser is apart, so i got the time to make it right

im trying to figure out a time right now to go look at the burb, so i still dont know toooo much about, just what has been described to me from the guy... the whole 83 not being tbi yet interests me... its possible that hes converted it, but i think its more likely i got the year wrong somehow... ill be sure to figure that out...

and yes im gonna grab the whole car

talk to me a lil bit about the power issues with this motor... its still got a good amount more than the 2f, and im not lookin for a race car, just some good torquey grunt and the ability to pull freeways speeds (or atleast more than 30mph) up over the continental divide... but talk some tech to me about why this is the way it is

ahh im excited

Don't let me talk you out of it, I love my 350 and I wholeheartedly reccomend the swap. TBI is silly simple and reliable, too great attributes. Power can deffinitely be increased, but even if you don't, you will have lots more than with the 2F and it will run perfectly all the time, regardless of temp, altitude, etc. The TBI motors had restrictive intake manifolds, exhaust systems, poor flowing heads and tiny cams, but it all works together. Check out this website, www.tbichips.com there is s section on truck mods that has some good information and some of the project rigs on this site will give some insight to what can be achieved with TBI.

[Hank]

I've built some very nice TBI motors for swaps. I wouldn't start with anything 83 vintage. FYI I can go to my local engine shop and buy a TBI 350 intake to pan for $1100 with a decent cam and complete reman. There are decent heads for these motors and very good heads for these motors. The intake is restrictive but can be changed or modified just like anything else. Cam profiles vary widely (SBC DUH!) and there are injectors that can be swapped in if more fuel is needed.

Still, I'm all for a bone stock one. If I changed my FJ62 mill to anything else it would be a TBI 350, howell harness and management, a 700r4, some sort of doubler and my stock t-case. It would be done already but I can't seem to kill this motor with normal driving.

[Nemesis Gnat]

cool thanks again... that tbichips.com site is useful and seems to back up what yall are sayin about power

i am looking for a good reliable simple swap, no hot rod, so this seems like the way to go

in doing research though, im stumbling about some nice donor trucks for a few hundred dollars, that wont need rebuilds, which bring up a question:

how much (ball park) is it gonna cost me to rebuild the motor? is it worth it just to pay a few hundred dollars to get a motor that wont need to be rebuilt?

the rebuild process isnt just money for me either, i love to tear into things to see how they work in real life... so if it was even dollar-wise (or close to even) id probably lean toward rebuilding just for the experience... it also allows me to do a lil power work...

finally, it seems like i can get carbed 350s for cheaper... other than the obvious (lean angles, ease of starting, etc) should i lean toward the tbi? i dont spend a lot of time at the maximum angles of off roading (mostly i do expedition type wheeling and a lot of driving to and from bike races), and ive never had problems with the carb on a 2f... although i hear th 2f carb is pretty reliable and off road worthy... should i be considering carbed sbcs too?

[Hank]

Leave the Carbs for the pre mesopotamian era and stick with fuel injection. Heck TBI is just a touch newer than the Mayan culture.

As for rebuild price, $1100, ready to go on the shelf at my engine shop. Shouldn't cost much more anywhere else. DYI saves you about $180 in assembly but voids lots of shops warranties. I wouldn't go used. My personal opinion is that I'd rather have a fresh engine if I'm going through all the trouble of swapping anything. IH8USEDPARTS.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Originally Posted by Hank

As for rebuild price, $1100, ready to go on the shelf at my engine shop. Shouldn't cost much more anywhere else. DYI saves you about $180 in assembly but voids lots of shops warranties. I wouldn't go used. My personal opinion is that I'd rather have a fresh engine if I'm going through all the trouble of swapping anything. IH8USEDPARTS.

x2

IMHO A tbi would be a great swap for a cruiser. I have one(350) in a chebby pickup(95) and all I've done to it is headers,remove the cat, installed a flowmaster ,and topped it off with a K&N. It always runs good and has plenty of power even with 35's.(4:56 gears).As for to rebuild or not to rebuild save yourself the trouble and put something fresh in there. By the way great find,free is a good price.
-Rob

[Cruisified]

Someone correct me if i'm wrong but wont you need to swap gas tanks as well due to the additional sensors and funky bidness related to TBI.

[alaska60]

You can also consider if you are going to rebuild the 350......, You may want to get a 383 stroker kit with a scat cam. this will increase your horsepower ten fold and get a ton of torque to boot. The conversion is really not that bad. I went with an IPF wiring harness and i run a non us factory toyota 5 speed manual with a Ranger torque splitter in between the tranny and motor. I also run a toyota clutch and have had no problems. The motor mounts are critical as getting them 3/4" out and checking and also alowing enough room for the exhaust to clear the steering u joint on the shaft. Go with block hugger style headers and it should just barely clear the steering. i also recommentd a heat resistant wrap around the steering too. I have done this conversion a few times and if you get stuck or confused this is a great resource. My 60 is pushing 400 horsepower with 10 gears i can run through. It is a F*&$% raped ape. you will love this conversion. You may also want to go with 4:56 gears if you want to get the most out of that 350. when it comes time to rebuild, go with the stroker kit/scat cam combo. best one ive done yet. enjoy it!

[Nemesis Gnat]

once again, i cant say enough about how awesome a site this is...

im doing some research on rebuild kits right now and will definitely look into the 383 thing (its something thats been suggested other places too). other than a cam, should i be looking at other upgrades to support the added displacement? a bigger injector? any suggestions on good quality rebuild kits?

[Elbert]

no reason to change or modify the fuel tank that I know of when using a TBI engine. You do need to run the correct electronic fuel pump. TBI engines run on the low side of the fuel pressure range for fuel injected engines. I suggest you talk to the suppliers of the cam or stroker kits to make sure they will run correctly with a TBI engine, and also to make sure you know if these require any modifications. Fuel injected engines are picky about camshafts. You don't need a hot-rodded TBI 350 to have plenty of usable power. If a TBI 350 can push around a suburban or full size GM pickup, it certainly can push a LC. Stock configuration on the engine is by far the easy way to go.

[lehiguy]

If your feeling overwhelmed, it's because there are a million choices with small block Chevys. They are cheap to rebuild, parts are everywhere, and you can get great, reliable power out of them. If you're going to rebuild one, then there are choices to make. There are different blocks. I chose a Gen II block, these started showing up in the '92 camaros and then in the trucks in '96. They have four-bolt main bearing caps, roller lifters and a one-piece rear main seal, very desireable. The Vortec heads are among the best that GM ever put on a production motor, and certainly the best cast iron head around. Then there are the 10,000 cams on the market. Do you see where this is going? You need to make a decision and go there. I have been running a Gen II block with Vortec heads and a carb for the last 100K miles. It's basicly a carburated LT1. I've been gathering parts for the last six months to put TBI on it. I'm using a stock wiring harness that I modified along with an enlarged throttle body (stock is rated at 450CFM, mine is 600 CFM) I have consistently recorded milage between 13 and 15 with the 350 as it is and I expect that to go up with the TBI. Anyway, your on the right path. I would have concerns about the setup on the '83 Suburban. As I said, the TBI debut was 1987. If it has been retrofitted, did it retain the spark control and knock sensor? I doubt it. I would look for a factory complete setup, not a retrofit so you can get ALL the sensors and hardware.

[Nemesis Gnat]

ya i know what you mean about choices choices choices... but ive got time, and anything loud and fast or slow and dirty is my passion. in other words, im lovin this... i talked to the guy a lil bit more about this burb. he says that it is tbi, 4 bolt mains, burns oil, and hes not exactly sure about the year, so we gotta check that.

its also an hours drive away, and has no title, so i gotta tow it here somehow...

or i see newer tbi 350s on craigslist around here for a several hundred dollars that claim to have all the wiring with them and be in good running condition... so i think i have some thinkin to do

[lehiguy]

There is another member who installed a 5.3 Chevy in his 60 and has had no problems with fuel supply. He runs an external electric pump and had just returned from Moab and reported that he ran down to the last two or three gallons of gas while wheeling and never had an issue. Evidently the tanks are decently baffled from the factory. The TBI injector pod contains a fuel pressure regulator and, since Cruisers already have a return line to the tank, it's an easy hook up with regards to fuel.

[Nemesis Gnat]

so i did some more talkin to the guy whos givin me the car...

he sure enough still wants to give it all to me (free!), he just wants it to go to good use and stop wasting away in a high school parking lot

its an 87, not an 83... did someone say something about early tbi being bad?

its got all the wiring and stock stuff in place, with a freshly rebuilt tranny, but bad or no brakes and no title anymore (its seen a few owners and people seemed to stop transferring ownership a while back) so ill definitely need to tow it... can anyone maybe possibly help me here? ill try the rising sun forums too.. im not 21 yet so i cant offer brews, but i can offer $...

his high school shop teacher said a couple years ago that it needed the top end rebuilt... he didnt know exactly what that meant but he mentions something about valves... but apparantly the bottom end is in good shape and the block is all good. its lookin more and more like im gonna replace the rotating parts and get it to 383, but i need advice on that, so talk some tech to me about what i should be looking for (reputable brands, cast vs forged cranks, etc... im just pretty lost looking at all the stats on them kits). what other performance upgrades im gonna need/want to support the added displacement.

that tbichips.com site talks bout the stock heads flowing well enough up to 4000 something rpms so they should be fine for my purposes. and i assume the stock intake is in the same boat? a cam seems to be a good idea... and that site also has a link to 1.6 ratio rockers as a kit for 80 bucks... seem like a good idea? other than that, i dunno...

basically i dont know much about building motors for power... i know basically, get lots of air and fuel in, make a hot spark, get all that burnt air and fuel out... but i dunno where the sbc lacks and where ill get good bang for my buck, all while making a motor thats not some hot rod motor thatll hit powerband at 6000 rpms.

on second thought, should i start another thread about building up a strong performing but value tbi 383 for cruiser swaps?

i know strong peforming but value seems like an oxymoron, but what i mean is... im willing to spend the money for all the right parts, but i dont need the exotic materials and parts thatll handle 700 hp and a bazillion rpms...

so that was a lil long winded, but did it make sense?

thanks everyone for puttin up with the learning curve

[Nemesis Gnat]

so i need someone to tell me if im just super susceptable to suggestion, or if this seems like a good combo...

-383 stroker kit (i still need advice on this part...)
-either a Edelbrock 2102 or Comp 12-249-4 cam
-1.6 ratio roller tip rockers (and springs?)
-and a good rebuild kit (suggestions?)
what am i missing?

and this is into an 87 tbi 350 from a suburban that is in need of a rebuild

and sorry for the 2 posts one right after the other... im a lil bit excited

[Elbert]

My advice all along has been to run a stock configuration. While its fun to have plenty of excess power think about how you drive the LC and how you are going to use it. Also think about how the truck stops and handles the road. I would not spend big bucks on rebuilding a TBI 350. You might consider a GM crate TBI 350 which is a long block new engine...you would need the intake and fuel setup + all the brackets etc.

The more extreme you go with the engine mechanicals the harder its going to be to get the truck to idle and run right under the TBI fuel injection. Yes you can install a stroker kit and performance camshaft...etc but will you really be able to make use of that, and what will it take to get it to run right?
You cannot program a 1987 ECM in real time like you can with the new ECMs.... you have to buy a custom chip. These custom chips are made to account for specific camshaft profiles and performance options.

You'll save yourself a lot of headache and $$ by using a stock setup. Its true that you can do all kind of things to most any engine, but in the end how much money did it cost and how much expertise and time did it take, and is the end result a vehicle that you want to take off in the middle of nowhere driving.

Don't get stuck with an engine combination that does not fit your needs. and understand what it takes to get one of these things to run right! Problems with stock fuel injection can be repaired by the local mechanic.... problems with custom chips and high performance modifications would be your problem.

Engines are like a team...its take all members of the team to contribute to the end result. So... the heads, the crankshaft, the intake, the compressions (pistons) and fuel system all have to work together to run right...you get one of those out of whack and you either gained nothing for your money or you have problems with your expected performance.

Just my view... you would have a lot of fun with a stock TBI 350 and have far fewer problems with maintence and drivability issues, than you would with running a hot-rodded version of a TBI 350.

In my view I would not run the stroker kit on the TBI 350, I would find a camshaft that the manufacture certifies that runs with a TBI 350 or I would run a stock type cam. TBI engines are generally bullit-proof in stock configuration.

As in any public forum you'll read a full spectrum of views and ideas. You may want to research this a little more and make sure to ask any local guys around your location what's their experince. I just think a stock TBI setup would save you some serious $$, and you would benefit from it not only in dollars but ease of setup, ease of maintence, and drivability.

[lehiguy]

Elbert's right about the simplicity part of keeping it stock. There are endless choices and each one has a price tag attached. If that truck is a '97, go get it. SBCs are the cheapest rebuild on the planet, so don't be too afraid of that. Freshen up the motor, stick it in your Cruiser, and if a year from now you think it needs more beans then you will have at the very least a good bottom end on which to build.

[Nemesis Gnat]

ya, thats good advice... i get excited easily and often need someone to get me back into reality

so in more conversations it looks like ill need to replace atleast the rings and valve seats...

i would like to replace the cam still... does the suggestion of either of those cams from the previous post along with new lifters and the 1.6 ratio rockers seem good? valve springs?

i only add the rockers into the equation cause it seems like a cost effective upgrade, and i add the lifters cause if the valve train is worn on this bad boy (which is seems like it might be from descriptions), i may as well replace um eh?

or am i still not quite all the way back into reality here?

and in a rebuild kit... im looking for all gaskets and seals, crank and rod bearings, cam bearings, rings... what else? valve seats?

something like this perchance? Federal Mogul MK6038A-000 - Federal Mogul Premium Engine Rebuild Kits - summitracing.com