HHO injection generator results

[Corbet]

Does not look hard at all to install. But not something you could swap from one vehicle to another in just minutes. I'd love to get a loner system to try first but that would be up to Jason. I don't have 2F equipped LC so even if he wanted to let me try it would have to be completely reconfigured to my SBC or 1FZ.

Jason also mentioned an engine additive that is recommended pre install. I'll let him explain that as he will do better than me.

And yes I'm sure someone with the knowledge and time could build their own system. But after the time and suppies invested I don't think you would be too far ahead.

[powderhound]

Originally Posted by NocalFJ60

How hard is it to install? If Jason can unhook it easily, it would be a good test to see him take it off his cruiser and put it on one of yours for a week or so and see the results. I think you could make one yourself for a lot less.

When I first was checking out the different systems online, most all of them were for plans to build a similar system DIY style. I coughed up $49 bucks for the downloadable assembly of one of the DIY kits. It was to say the least, a bit overwhelming with 100 pages of detailed assembly instructions, with parts from radio shack that I was basically going to have to build a control module from scratch. This was new territory for me dealing with transistors,etc.
I then looked online for complete kits, most where very rudimentary at best, or super expensive. the unit I have now was complete, reasonably priced, waranteed, and had backup support 12 hrs/day, so the choice was obvious. I am happy enough with the product with just the way it cleans up the emissions, the mpg, and smoothness or running with the hho are a big bonus.
I just switched to my summer tires, so I'll be able to get some highway mpg #'s soon.

[powderhound]

The additive that I am using is Xado. It's been used in europe for several years. Now there is a distributor out of kansas. It is a nano tech based ceramic coating that is supposed actually ad material to high friction areas by creating a cement like bond on the areas. The claim it can actually bring the compression up to like new. I found out about it through another hydrogen company that recommended it to seal up any microscopic cracks in the engine block so that methane from burning hydrogen doesn't form in these cracks and eventually cause big cracks. They make versions of the xado for everything from engines to bearings to rifle barrels. the ceramic bond is extremely slick as well. The claim that once an engine is treated, it can run for up to 120 miles with no oil.
I used the power steering version as well and it fixed the sloppiness within 10 minutes, I was impressed.
I've gone through two of the three treatments for the engine and it's noticeably smoother. I just have to replace that leaky manafold gasket and it should be running pretty tight. I'd like to do a compression leak down test once I've replaced the gasket to see where the engine stands.

[Corbet]

Jason I forgot to mention I have a leak down and/or compression tester if you want to do it here.

[powderhound]

thanks corbet, when I get the manafold gasket replaced, I'll take you up on it.

[cruiser88]

I want this......just seen it work its wicked cool



oxygen acetylene torch with - Yahoo! Video

[cruiser88]

I continue you read threw your thread on this subject and as you all know fuel is eating at us cruiser owners so if you would not mind what did this kit cost you? It looks simple from what i watched of the video but even if i would get 2 more mpg's out of my 62 i could justify the cost of this thing....even with the wife....oh i can use this on fuel injection correct?

Any help would be great....reading on

[cruiser88]

Originally Posted by cruiser88

I continue you read threw your thread on this subject and as you all know fuel is eating at us cruiser owners so if you would not mind what did this kit cost you? It looks simple from what i watched of the video but even if i would get 2 more mpg's out of my 62 i could justify the cost of this thing....even with the wife....oh i can use this on fuel injection correct?

Any help would be great....reading on

Yes they do, for engines with A carburetor connect the HHO outlet hose directly under the carb into the riser plate orifice located right under the carburetor.

On fuel injected engines, connect the HHO outlet hose to the venturi into the air intake plenum as close to the throttle body assembly as possible.

[RockDoc]

Originally Posted by cruiser88

I want this......just seen it work its wicked cool



oxygen acetylene torch with - Yahoo! Video

Man, this stuff just keeps throwing red flags in my mind. You can hold the tip of the torch? Wow, so they are saying it doesn't produce any heat until the hydrogen and oxygen combine and burn PAST the tip? That's frigging amazing And holy crap, the flame isn't as bright as a (oxy-acet?) torch! Are you telling me that there are fuels that burn with little production of visible light? A car that runs on water? BULLSHIT, breaking and reforming the same bonds will not net energy. Can you design a car to run on hydrogen and oxygen, sure (e.g. fuel cells), can you design a car that will produce H2 and O2 from water (consuming energy) and then run off that H2 and O2 with enough excess energy to overcome the demands of the electrolysis? Absolutely not.

[RockDoc]

From Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A pure stoichiometric mixture is most easily obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:
electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O
The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it; see Electrolysis of water:Efficiency.

Also

An oxyhydrogen torch is an oxy-gas torch, which burns hydrogen (the fuel) with oxygen (the oxidiser). It is used for cutting and welding metals, glass, and thermoplastics.[6] An oxyhydrogen torch is used in the glass industry for "fire polishing"; slightly melting the surface of glass to remove scratches and dullness.
The oxyhydrogen flame begins a short distance from the torch tip; if the distance is great enough the torch tip can remain relatively cool.[7]

[cruiser88]

Originally Posted by RockDoc

Man, this stuff just keeps throwing red flags in my mind. You can hold the tip of the torch? Wow, so they are saying it doesn't produce any heat until the hydrogen and oxygen combine and burn PAST the tip? That's frigging amazing And holy crap, the flame isn't as bright as a (oxy-acet?) torch! Are you telling me that there are fuels that burn with little production of visible light? A car that runs on water? BULLSHIT, breaking and reforming the same bonds will not net energy. Can you design a car to run on hydrogen and oxygen, sure (e.g. fuel cells), can you design a car that will produce H2 and O2 from water (consuming energy) and then run off that H2 and O2 with enough excess energy to overcome the demands of the electrolysis? Absolutely not.

I never seen the car side of it but i did see this puppy(torch) work in action even used it....no way it would cut inch thick steel but it does cut like a sob on most things


I did did not have the balls to grab the tip

[RockDoc]

It isn't my intention to flame those interest in seeing if adding "oxyhydrogen" to the combustion process increases the efficiency of the gasoline burn, but to call BS on the idea that you can run an engine on a closed energy loop, or that the "brown gas" adds any energy to the equation once you factor in its production.

If you are getting improved milage as a result of the system, I am interested in why, and I have yet to see anything other than invalid salesmanship.

Okay, I should have kept reading in the Wiki page:

As a fuel supplement
Oxyhydrogen gas is effective at improving emissions and efficiency in internal combustion engines when used as a fuel supplement. See Hydrogen fuel enhancement; hydrogen affects the burn rate of fuels and lean combustion capabilities of internal combustion engines.[11][12][13] Fuel Enhancement systems are designed "to feed the hydrogen and oxygen gases directly to an internal combustion engine without intermediate storage".[14]
For diesel applications, it is claimed that "When the hydrogen enriched air is compressed, the diesel fuel is introduced with a resulting improvement in fuel efficiency and maximized combustion of the fuel".[15] Fuel enhancement has the potential to substantially reduce pollution emissions of internal combustion engines; research in 2004 concluded that "HC-emissions as well as NOx-emissions could be reduced to near zero".[16] A 50% reduction in gasoline consumption, at idle, was reported by numerically analyzing "the effect of hydrogen enriched gasoline on the performance, emissions and fuel consumption of a small spark-ignition engine".[17] Hydrogen "addition can guarantee a regular running", of the engine "with many advantages in terms of emissions levels and fuel consumption reduction".[16] Hydrogen fuel enhancement can be optimized by implementing established lean burn concepts, and at minimum to achieve an actual increase in gas mileage the air/fuel ratio needs appropriate modification.[12][11][16][18] "Increases in engine efficiency are more dominant than the energy loss incurred in generating hydrogen",[12] which is supported by computational analysis that "has marked the possibility of operating with high air overabundance (lean or ultra-lean mixtures) without a performance decrease, but with great advantages on pollution emissions and fuel consumption".[17]



More info here: Hydrogen fuel enhancement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So it seems to work by allowing you to lean out the mixture.... what does this mean for maximum power production? (at WOT when you are at the limits of air flow into the combustion chamber) If you are cutting down the fuel per unit of air, it stands to reason that you are also cutting down the power produced at WOT, unless the increase in burn efficiency outruns the increase in AFR.
What potential for damage is introduced if you tune your engine to run with the hydrogen, and for whatever reason, the hydrogen supply is cut? Will such a piggy-back system work safely without being part of unified engine management system? Can hydrogen production keep pace with demand when you are working the engine hard? Can you justify playing around with this without the research money to bankroll a few blown engines in the process? I can see this having potential when tied to a system built in at the factory that varies AFR and timing to adjust for load and hydrogen feed.

What about hydrogen embrittlement?
Blah, blah, blah.

[powderhound]

Hey rocdoc, did you get this worked up when they invented the microwave too?

[RockDoc]

Ha, I've just got a mind that won't let things go until I understand them. And the idea of HHO injection has come up several times in the last year here. Since you've actually gone through with it, and seem to be finding a benefit in it, I decided to finally look into it rather than label everyone a kook.

And no, I understand how a microwave works.

[powderhound]

no worries, I'm kind of like that too. you should have seen my buddys' faces when I explained to them what I was doing. then when they saw it in action they understood how it works. It's just another way to ween ourselves off of oil, even just a bit.

[RockDoc]

Well, this thread has brought me far enough to understand that there is merit in the idea of Hydrogen injection, now I am just curious why it hasn't been adopted along with hybrid technology, the resurgence of diesel, electric cars, etc. I wonder if there are reliability/engine longevity issues. If it really is as easy as putting in a larger alternator and an electrolyte tank......

If you think I'm worked up, poke your head in the 80 series forum and suggest using an oil weight that doesn't match the spec suggested on the filler cap! Blood will flow.

[cruiser88]

Originally Posted by RockDoc

Well, this thread has brought me far enough to understand that there is merit in the idea of Hydrogen injection, now I am just curious why it hasn't been adopted along with hybrid technology, the resurgence of diesel, electric cars, etc. I wonder if there are reliability/engine longevity issues. If it really is as easy as putting in a larger alternator and an electrolyte tank......

If you think I'm worked up, poke your head in the 80 series forum and suggest using an oil weight that doesn't match the spec suggested on the filler cap! Blood will flow.

I spoke of a reman part in there once and i got a beatdown.

Once i find out the cost i might try this system in the fall along with a few other mods

[powderhound]

Well if Corbet puts a system in one of the sweet fj80's on his lot then we'll have to contend with the 80's forum and see what happens.

[powderhound]

cost for my unit was $500 with tax, extra pressurized pump, and shipping.
j.

[cruiser88]

Originally Posted by powderhound

cost for my unit was $500 with tax, extra pressurized pump, and shipping.
j.

Thank you....which dealer did you use?

[Pard o' Hiace]

Maybe I should try this out on my 93 Sentra - the engine is in good shape but the rest of the car is useable but not that saleable. Then if it works and does not screw anything up, I could put it on something less efficient like my Hiace. Wish I had something both semi disposable and inefficient.

What kind of instructions if any do they give for changing the injection timing / volume? For those of us who aren't up to doing that level of adjustment ourselves, that adjustment would be an added cost to go through before seeing if this thing works well enough to buy it.

The feedback I've seen online about similar kits is that they do not do much. And/or that the guys running the various companies are schysters or incompetent, even if the principle behind the technology could work. The one exception is the Canadian hydrogen Company, which makes these for Semis, charges $4k for them, guarantees 10% extra efficiency and has a patent on their hydrolysis converter. they make a smaller unit for $1.5K. They have been featured in Wired magazine, and lease their units out to fleets all over NA. Very solid feedback. No bad feedback online about the company you went to, Powderhound.

I would rather pay $1.5K for something that works than gamble $500 on something which might work. I do like that notion of folks chipping in to test this on a good engine. I'd be willing to risk my Sentra as the test bed, and put in my share, and then either buy everyone who contributed out if it works well, or pass it on to someone else who put in to try - maybe someone with a diesel. I'm in for up to $100, if others will match. I guess the other options are we sit and wait for someone else to take the risk. . .

Suppose that does beg the question of what happens if no one gets good results . . .

Cheers,
Pard

[cruiser88]

I clearly see how it works for the most part but my only concern is the EXTRA fuel your motor is getting. Yes I need to finish reading up on their site. But they say the fuel is on demand well if your motor is already getting enough fuel then how does the kit know to send fuel and how much. I understand it also produces oxygen so i assume this would assist in burning up the extra fuel the kit produces .

The savings comes from the kit producing cheap almost free gas(hydrogen) and it produces oxygen but regulation is my only concern.

[RockDoc]

Originally Posted by powderhound

Well if Corbet puts a system in one of the sweet fj80's on his lot then we'll have to contend with the 80's forum and see what happens.

I would definitely subscribe to that thread!

Originally Posted by Pard o' Hiace

Maybe I should try this out on my 93 Sentra - ...

I would rather pay $1.5K for something that works than gamble $500 on something which might work. I do like that notion of folks chipping in to test this on a good engine. I'd be willing to risk my Sentra as the test bed, and put in my share, and then either buy everyone who contributed out if it works well, or pass it on to someone else who put in to try - maybe someone with a diesel. I'm in for up to $100, if others will match. I guess the other options are we sit and wait for someone else to take the risk. . .

Suppose that does beg the question of what happens if no one gets good results . . .

Cheers,
Pard

I would be up for kicking in some coin (say $20) to see someone test one of these independently on an engine that is in good tune, detail what is involved in the install and give feedback on it. If Crazy8s goes down that road, I would throw my money his way, as he is a well know "contributor" here, and has pretty much the same engine under the hood as me. On the other hand, Pard 'o Hiace is in my neighborhood.....