2F with 3FE head/injection? Real world stories please

CardinalFJ60 · 08-14-07, 04:42 PM

I'm toying around with having this done - not by me. I've read most of the threads and wanted some feedback on those who have done this, and how you like it now. This not related to parts needed, or how difficult it is...I'm curious about "how ya' like it", driving impressions, and would you do it again the same way?

thanks!!

samibattlemaiden · 08-14-07, 06:36 PM

i got no story for you but, after posing the diesel swap question and seeing th price tag this also has me interested.

klinetime574 · 08-14-07, 06:38 PM

We need tonkota....

zebrabeefj40 · 08-14-07, 07:28 PM

Just walked in the house from firing up the 2FE in my 60 for the first time. Hafta give me a couple days to get a driving impression; got a few details to tie up before I can take it down the road. Seemed to rev nicely and sounded good parked in the driveway though. Hope it drives as nice as it sounds...

Nick

tonkota · 08-14-07, 10:56 PM

Whatcha want? I heard my name.

The 2F-E is great. It has more torque down around 2000-3000 RPM. I like it very much.

Ask me any detailed questions about it.

chicago · 08-15-07, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkota

Whatcha want? I heard my name.

The 2F-E is great. It has more torque down around 2000-3000 RPM. I like it very much.

Ask me any detailed questions about it.

Is there a big difference in driving performance, particularly going UP HILL?
Im considering this too in lieu of a vortec.
Did you do a rebuild?
put a cam in it?
Headers?
Did you shave the head at all?
Bore the cylinders?

Im half way thinking about doing the H55 swap into my 62 as well.
On the trail I LOVE IT as it is...getting to the trail SUCKS!
Its so miserable in fact, that it causes me to pause before embarking on long distance trips cuz top speed going up hill is 30-45...
Then again, SOA and 35's dont help for road speeds up hill!

Thanks,

Chicago

CardinalFJ60 · 08-15-07, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicago

Is there a big difference in driving performance, particularly going UP HILL?
Im considering this too in lieu of a vortec.
Did you do a rebuild?
put a cam in it?
Headers?
Did you shave the head at all?
Bore the cylinders?

Im half way thinking about doing the H55 swap into my 62 as well.
On the trail I LOVE IT as it is...getting to the trail SUCKS!
Its so miserable in fact, that it causes me to pause before embarking on long distance trips cuz top speed going up hill is 30-45...
Then again, SOA and 35's dont help for road speeds up hill!

Thanks,

Chicago

Yeah!!! exactly what I'm curious about...all that stuff. I'll echo what Chicago says about "to the trail and back". Trail = great. Gettin' there can be a real drag.

tonkota · 08-15-07, 12:15 PM

Is there a big difference in driving performance, particularly going UP HILL?
Yes there is. I can accelerate, when loaded for camping plus 14' boat, up hills. It's amazing.

Im considering this too in lieu of a vortec.
It isn't a Vortec to be sure. But the 2F-E is less expensive and/or intrusive.

Did you do a rebuild?
put a cam in it?
Headers?
Did you shave the head at all?
Bore the cylinders?
I did rebuild, had it bored a little and balanced. The head was shaved, but not aggressively. I was short on money so no performance cam. Stock manifolds.

That said I have plans for a cam from Delta Cam (PN KC859), throttle body over bore, and computer modification from Jet. Currently I have the AFM set 2 clicks rich and I have been playing with it for a year to see what is best. Timing was done over time by ear and feel. I used to time my 235 Chevy the same way.

Read this too:
http://www.steelnthings.com/TLCA/2Fswap/

The pictures and text are all there.

Aseif007 · 08-15-07, 02:21 PM

Arron,

The JET ECU modification, what exatcly is that modifying? Years ago when I spoke with them they said the only thing they can do is increase the time that the injector says open. Is this still the case?

tonkota · 08-15-07, 02:57 PM

I'm not sure. It's been awhile since I contacted them also. When I talked with them they stated that I should make all modifications first then send them the ECU to be adjusted to the new specs. Maybe I should check into it again to be sure.

At any rate, the stock ECU will handle changes since it is a closed loop.

Moby · 08-15-07, 04:16 PM

What did you do with your timing?

Moby · 08-15-07, 04:36 PM

[edit - I talked to Jet a couple of times about their chips for my motor]

Chipping a gas ECU usually means more agressive timing and minor tweaks to the fueling (sometimes leaner at WOT can improve power at the expense of a little safety - OEMs usually run rich best torque at WOT for extra cylinder cooling to fight detonation). I've not heard great improvements from others that have tried their 3FE chip but it's possible that some gains can be had.

However it is also possible that their 3FE program might not be applicable for your 2FE (for example adding displacement increases compression which might not play well with increased spark advance - I believe that their chips already require premium which suggests that they are adding spark advance). Jet will work with you for a non stock motor though and try to address whatever problem areas that you're seeing. That means that in order to really optimize the experience it's best if you can say "I'm running lean between 1800-2100 rpms at half throttle" or "It feels sluggish at X". And then they'll try to fix this. They will definitely need to know cam specs, and other engine changes.

Doing this remotely without good data logs can be difficult. Something else to consider is seeing a tuner with a chassis dyno that does piggy back ECUs such as a Unichip. This way they put the truck on the dyno, see what's going on, make changes and see how the truck reacts in more or less real time. More expense than a Jet chip but likely better results as well.

samibattlemaiden · 08-15-07, 07:26 PM

ok so im pretty much in with all question asked so far except my road speed is more friendly then everyones so far. rebuilt 2F and H55 my question is will i gain much with the 2FE or would i be better off 3FE? sence pretty much i gotta by then engine any way. i can maintan just about any speed i want until i hit a big hill then all i gotta do is down shift but, depending on the hill and traffic i might end up slower than i want or in 3rd gear. im mostly looking for better fuel economy and faster acceleration.

tonkota · 08-15-07, 09:55 PM

Well, samibattlemaiden, I have yet to see any real mileage advantage. It seems that no matter what, I get about 13. I may get in the high teens unloaded on the highway, but I rarely drive unloaded on long trips.

Acceleration? I can do 0-60 in about 14+ seconds.

And on the hills, I let the auto shift down and let the thing rev upto 4500 regularly.

One thing I forgot to mention is that during the swap the original exhaust didn't match so I now have one cat (just passed emmissions on Tuesday) and 2 1/2" exhaust all the way back with a semi-performance muffler.

Moby · 08-15-07, 10:28 PM

You will not be disappointed with the 2FE (well, unless you expect a V8). Also remember that you get a steel crank instead of the cast iron crank in the 3FE and a "long" rod ratio of 1.8 vs the 1.56 of the 3FE (less stress on the pistons, cylinder walls and rod and cap bolts - although the bolts are better in the 3FE than in the 2F). These aren't direct performance gains but they do contribute to the durability of the engine and it's ability to rev.

matt.mcinnes · 08-15-07, 11:21 PM

Can't say as yet but looking at 400HP

samibattlemaiden · 08-16-07, 07:44 PM

ok Tonkota so i just read the article some one linked in another thread from FAQ and im curious, do you have a ton of fab experiance? this will be my first real project if i decide to do it. but i do want the experiance as i would one day like to be compitent enought to do cool stuff like engine swaps and other suck awsome custom fab work. can this be doen by a rookie with only minor help from pro's? as i really don't wanna pay a crap load of money cause i don't have it to spend.

tonkota · 08-16-07, 08:56 PM

You won't need serious fab skills or mad skills. You will need a welder or pay a shop to weld up the parts. Nothing fancy. You will need a drill, and a hacksaw at the least.
Did you read this?:
http://www.steelnthings.com/TLCA/2Fswap/2feswap.pdf

The details are there.

These are the only two fabricated brackets that required:
http://www.steelnthings.com/TLCA/2Fs...tures/DWG1.jpg
http://www.steelnthings.com/TLCA/2Fs...tures/DWG2.jpg

Look at the full size pictures too.
http://www.steelnthings.com/TLCA/2Fswap/

If you can remove the engine, you can do this.

84CRUISER · 08-16-07, 09:13 PM

I just put tbi on my 2f. I dont know personally how the 3fe swap runs, but holy cow, my 2f is a new animal. Couldnt tell you numbers but I can tell you that it raps like a v6 and has at least 20%-30% more power, and throttle response is sick. Paging 2badfjs...........I let him drive it today. He came back smiling said it wasnt fair. The nice thing about using gm tbi is parts are readily on the shelf and they are cheap. Just my 2cents, I would check into it for sure. Im more than willing to let anyone drive it.

chicago · 08-16-07, 11:36 PM

Keep it going...
I have a line on AT LEAST 3 2Fs I can get my hands on, and possible a donor 60 I can rape and plunder for the manual swap stuff...
This is sounding right up my alley...
I really dont WANT to do the voertec, but it feels like more of a necessity for me to be able to get to more runs out here in the west...If I have a viable option that would allow me crusing speeds, up hill at greater than 35 MPH

id be happy!
Its the up hill BOG that kills it for me...I lOVE everything else about the rig!
I fear that if I get into the Vortec realm...Ill be breaking a lot more shit than I care to...

Chicaog

CardinalFJ60 · 08-17-07, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 84CRUISER

I just put tbi on my 2f. I dont know personally how the 3fe swap runs, but holy cow, my 2f is a new animal. Couldnt tell you numbers but I can tell you that it raps like a v6 and has at least 20%-30% more power, and throttle response is sick. Paging 2badfjs...........I let him drive it today. He came back smiling said it wasnt fair. The nice thing about using gm tbi is parts are readily on the shelf and they are cheap. Just my 2cents, I would check into it for sure. Im more than willing to let anyone drive it.

Hey man, I'll see you tomorrow...I think I want to take you up on that offer. I'm taking the 40 to your shop for the day. :-)

Cardinal

2badfjs · 08-17-07, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardinalFJ60

Hey man, I'll see you tomorrow...I think I want to take you up on that offer. I'm taking the 40 to your shop for the day. :-)

Cardinal

you gotta drive it!

the sad thing is, you'll have to bring it back.

unbelievable shawn!!

5280Hawk · 08-17-07, 07:38 AM

For you colorado guys - the Yota yard has 3-4 60's on site and I think 2 62-s on site and they all still have their engines. If you're looking for a 3FE Head and TB. The guy at the yard quoted me $600 for the entire engine as is.

CardinalFJ60 · 08-17-07, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2badfjs

you gotta drive it!

the sad thing is, you'll have to bring it back.

unbelievable shawn!!

Bummer, I can't wait! I dream of going skiing without waving the VW's and truckers past me...at least if I hit the woods no one will see me! ;-)

How different is the GM setup vs. the 3fe setup? Is it pretty much the same but with different names stamped on the parts? I know next to nothing about all this stuff...

FJ60Cam · 08-17-07, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CardinalFJ60

Bummer, I can't wait! I dream of going skiing without waving the VW's and truckers past me...at least if I hit the woods no one will see me! ;-)

How different is the GM setup vs. the 3fe setup? Is it pretty much the same but with different names stamped on the parts? I know next to nothing about all this stuff...

The GM TBI pretty much only replaces the carb, kinda like a fancy computerized carb. The rest of the 2F would be intact.

The 3FE is a different system altogether and injects fuel at each cylinder instead at once central location.

FJ60Cam · 08-17-07, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 84CRUISER

I just put tbi on my 2f. I dont know personally how the 3fe swap runs, but holy cow, my 2f is a new animal. Couldnt tell you numbers but I can tell you that it raps like a v6 and has at least 20%-30% more power, and throttle response is sick. Paging 2badfjs...........I let him drive it today. He came back smiling said it wasnt fair. The nice thing about using gm tbi is parts are readily on the shelf and they are cheap. Just my 2cents, I would check into it for sure. Im more than willing to let anyone drive it.

Can you post up a parts/price list? Got any pics?

beaufort-fj60 · 08-17-07, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FJ60Cam

Can you post up a parts/price list? Got any pics?

x2.. there seems to be many versions of this setup.

84CRUISER · 08-17-07, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FJ60Cam

Can you post up a parts/price list? Got any pics?

I will post some pics for sure, let me resize them all and hopefully in the next day or two. Do a google search on 2f Tbi. There is a site by Tom Quinn. He lists out all the parts. I opted not to use the knock sensor, or the vss. they are not needed. vss will just kill fuel on decel and it is a PITA conversion, The knock sensor isnt necessary if you set your base timing correctly.

84CRUISER · 08-17-07, 11:05 AM

http://www.tomquinn.com/lc/2f_fi/index.html

here is the link. Im in mine about $1500. The install took me a weekend and am still sorta tuning it. Granted the 3fe conversion is mpfi and mine is tbi, but its a 2f. Your not gunna get 200 ponies out of a stock motor with either. Ill put my tbi against a 3fe swap anytime, I would be curious to see how they do.

tonkota · 08-17-07, 11:55 AM

We could drag race

That would be a slow but exciting race.