Appropriate winch for 60 series

kevinmrowland · 11-20-06, 09:04 PM

I want a winch.

Man winches are expensive, and I will hardly ever use it...........

So anyway,
The consensus seems to be that if your winch is for emergency use when you are alone then you should get a winch rated for 2x your vehicle weight.

I weighed my truck loaded for a trip at 6,120lbs, so I guess I need a 12,000lb winch. That limits it to the Warn12,000. However, I have also read that the 8274 winches have a ridiculous amount of guts, in some cases well past that of the 12,000 winches.

Since they are the same price what do you feel is the best option?

I don't care how it mounts (front mount vs. base mount)
The 8274 blocks more of the radiator but I would get to do cool mods to my ARB to fit it.
The 12,000 is a bit more streamlined but the 8274 is kinda cool in a retro sort of way.

So do I need a 12,000lb winch? (little voice kicks in ".....you know you want it....")
Is the 8274 really stronger than the planetary in-line winches?
What is the best synthetic rope?
Does anybody sell the winch with a synthetic rope/fairlead combo rather than the wire/roller one?

Wife wants the puter now, thanks for any info,
Kevin R.

JohnnyBoy · 11-20-06, 09:11 PM

hey read a good thread on winching and recovey here. could posibly need more that 2x if you want to strait pull, but you can always use a pull around and ancor and gear down. i have also been looking for a winch for a 60 and was considering the upright just because the're cool. synthentic rope is good but becarful of moisture and if you do have planatary inline gears the drum can get very hot and melt the rope on the first round.

Mark W · 11-20-06, 10:40 PM

You don't need a 12,000 pound winch for a 60. Not unless you have one heckof a built up '60 and you are doing the kind of stuff that 99.999% of the guys never do.

An 8-9.5K winch is all you need.

And when you toss a snatch block into the mix, you double your pulling power. Or enable some more complicated rigging. Regardless you should always have a snatch block inthe rig.

The 8274 is a great winch. The Warn 9-9.5K winches are real good ones too and fit the '60 better.

Mark...

Cruisergreg · 11-20-06, 10:42 PM

I'm sure I'll get a bizillion replies to the contrary, but I'd say don't "overwinch". The device is a very helpfull self-recovery item, but only in certain scenarios. Sometimes if you are stuck you are stuck and overuse of the winch can cause damage. As an example, I once was trying hopelessly to extract a 4Runner stuck on a stump in the snow. The Runner wasn't budging and the winch ended up ripping off one of my spring hangers from the frame when nothing elase would move (fraome horn where the winch was attached twisted. That was with a 9500 lb Warn.

bigbrown · 11-20-06, 11:29 PM

i've done alot of pulling with my old ramsey 9000lb winch. seems to be plenty strong for what i've needed.

Mark W · 11-20-06, 11:49 PM

You really can't blame damage done while winching... on the winch.

Mark...

denis · 11-21-06, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark W

And when you toss a snatch block into the mix, you double your pulling power.

you're not doubling your pulling power you're doubling your pulling force and halving your pulling speed.

Mark W · 11-21-06, 12:28 AM

Anyone who doesn't understand how a snatch block works and what it does has no business rigging a winch anyway.

Mark...

kevinmrowland · 11-21-06, 07:10 AM

I have a fair amount of experience with rigging different things, but I have NO experience with winches.

Snatch blocks, double line pulls and multiple anchors all make sense to me, but it seems that you could use up the 150' of cable really quick and be stuck needing to do a straight pull.

Mark you are right, I am definitely one of the 99.9% I don't really do any hardcore wheeling/winching up shear cliff faces. My truck is an expedition truck. I go places far away with a single vehicle and would like to be able to winch myself out of the ditch when the need arises.

Is the 8724 really worth the extra $$$ especially if a 9,000 is an alternative? I like the gear drive and the fact that the drum does not get hot (since I really want a synthetic cable)
And does anyone sell winches with the synthetic already on them? Seems silly to pay for the wire and roller fairlead if you dont even want them.

Most of the winch rating threads seem to originate from the 80 section and they all swear by the 12,000s. I have no practical experience with how to interpret the rating so I appreciate everyones opinions.
Thanks,
Kevin R.

beaufort-fj60 · 11-21-06, 08:17 AM

Kevin, did you look at the Mile Marker Hydraulic Winches? The Nay-Sayers always poo poo these, but I think they would be nice on a expedition rig.

http://www.milemarker.com/winches.html

nuclearlemon · 11-21-06, 08:29 AM

i've got a ramsey 8k on mine, slow, but it gets the job done and because it was an older model, it was only around $400 new

lowtideride · 11-21-06, 09:10 AM

I have an 8274 smashed into a non-winch ARB, it effected the cooling power of the rad almost nil. Its a great winch too.

CHWTOY · 11-21-06, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinmrowland

I like the gear drive and the fact that the drum does not get hot (since I really want a synthetic cable)
And does anyone sell winches with the synthetic already on them? Seems silly to pay for the wire and roller fairlead if you dont even want them.
Kevin R.

This melting of the synthetic thing gets blown way out of proportion, the only time your drum gets hot on a planatary geared winch is when you are powering out (say lowering yourself off a ledge). Then only if you do it for extended periods of time without letting it cool off, I would say this falls in with the 99.9% thing.

The only winch I am aware of that is sold with synthetic is the Warn 9.5RC wich is really designed for comp rigs and only caries 50' of rope on the drum. Just sell the wire on eBay, lots of people doing that.

-just my $.02

REKCUT · 11-21-06, 10:03 AM

I am sold on the T-max winch. I watched Woody pull a 60 that was wedged sideways up a steep hill at the flat nasty event. Had questions before that, but after seeing it in person, and watching him abuse it on a non-self recovery, I am going to buy the T-max 10k and save money over the warn. It may not be as good as a warn if you are the 1% that use it to the limit but again, I am sold for my usage.

CaliCruiser · 11-21-06, 10:22 AM

I do have a little bias towards the 8274 because I scored one cheap at a yardsales,($250) but after doing research it seems that the 50 year old winch has succesfully stood up to the test of time. The new models are better with a higher output motor and it turn faster line speed, (8274-50) other than that the old models are the same. What model ARB bumper do you have, is it made for the 8274 or lay-down style? I'm not sure how easy or difficult it is to make one work with the other, but lowtideride did squeeze a 8274 into a non-winch ARB, so anything is possible.
HTH

Dylan

REKCUT · 11-21-06, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowtideride

I have an 8274 smashed into a non-winch ARB, it effected the cooling power of the rad almost nil. Its a great winch too.

I would love to see a picture of this. I have thought about putting a winch on my non winch arb

kevinmrowland · 11-21-06, 10:59 AM

beaufort-fj60
I think I want to stay away from the hydraulic, I've got a great setup for electric with the dual alternators. I have considered the mile-marker electric winches and read a few threads on here about them, one in particular that was dismantled and compared to the warn, same basic guts but not as good of a fit-and-finish was the verdict I think.

I was leaning toward the Warn, even though it seems that you are just paying for the name, I get the impression that they stand behind their name. I want a winch that I hopefully never have to use, but I will REALLY want it to work when I do need it.

nuclearlemon
The Ramsey seem to be the best deal of any of them, they do not seem to have a 12,000 so I did not think they were an option, but with the new info I will take another look.

lowtideride
I saw your write-up on that, one of the reasons I was considering it.

CHWTOY
Thanks for the hot drum info, makes sense. I noticed that RC one, 50' of rope is laughable for my application.

REKCUT
I think the T-max and the M-M are in the same boat as far as working hard and are a viable option, however, I hesitate to cut corners with a piece of supposedly "emergency" equipment. May be a totally unfounded fear though.

CaliCruiser
Since I do not see many used winches around here the 8274-50 would probably the only option, but I was under the same impresion that exept for the line speed they were basicaly the same as they have always been.
My ARB is not a winch one, so no matter what It will need some work, I don't mind cutting or welding or bending whatever I need, hell, thats the part I am looking forward to.

Thanks for all the new info.

kevinmrowland · 11-21-06, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REKCUT

I would love to see a picture of this. I have thought about putting a winch on my non winch arb

http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/90147-smashing-8274-into-non-winch-arb.html

lowtideride · 11-21-06, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REKCUT

I would love to see a picture of this. I have thought about putting a winch on my non winch arb

Here is a few....its a tight fit. I even had to clock the winch forward a bit but it cleared everything with 1/8inch to spare on all sides. The only problem is relocating your lights if you have any, and the CB tab I moved to the outside of the bar.

let me know if you have a questions...

-Al

Mark W · 11-21-06, 11:16 AM

If you expect to use the winch much, don't get rid of your steel cable in favor of the synthetic. Just use it up. Cable is pretty much a consumable. It gets mashed, frayed and otherwise deteriorates. When it is time to replace it, then go with the synthetic.

Or... If it is brand new, thenit should not be to "curly que'd" and you should be able to unload it from the winch and lay it in a larger flat coil. Replace it with your new synthetic and then toss it up on your roof rack, or in the back under your load. If you have a long pull which you cannot reach with the cable onthe winch, you have an extension (add a loop on the non-hook end before you stow it away.

I don't do so now, but in the past I carried two 150 foot coils of cable in addition to the 225 on the winch. Only used it a couple of times which is why I don't normally carry it any more. But if you're running solo in remote country it can be a handy thing to have. We have also used one of the extra cables to attach to a rig before it starts into a nasty bog or even tricky water crossing Just lay it out on the ground and let the rig drag it. If you do have to do a recovery the cable is already rigged. Just make sure that you use enough cable so that the free end doesn't get pulled out into the water/swamp long before the rig reaches the difficult part
You can use your original steel cable to rig a double line setup from the winch, to a snatch block attached to one end of the extra cable and back to the rig/another anchor. Then the extra cable spans the distance to the stuck rig. 200-225 feet of reach with most winches in a double line setup. I extracted a very stuck M37 with a 6000 pound warn and a pair of FJ40s tis way. The length let me pick ideal spots to plant the '40s and keep them out of the mess and still double my applied power to the stuck rig and double my anchoring force (two '40s not just one).

Mark...

esh · 11-21-06, 11:16 AM

Kevin,

If you can handle the weight (136lbs) the M12000 is a great winch, find one at a local swap, nickel ads, etc. if you can. It is more appropriate for the weight you guys carry.

The 8274 with the newer motor is lighter (about 110lbs) and very strong. Double line if you're doing heavy pulls, etc.

With either of these you cannot go wrong. And they are worth the money. There are plenty of deals out there on 8274s of all sorts of years, and it isn't hard to swap in a newer motor. I got my M12000 at a local IH Scout 4x4 swap meet for $650 (used twice), so there are deals to be had there too.

I have learned through stupidity the value of a good winch (and to use one ONLY to get out of a situation, or others out of situations, they didn't expect to get in). Winches have a way of making you stupid- to the degree of, "hey I have a winch, I can make that!"

I know you guys don't think that way but don't let it give you false confidence. Luckily the most my winches get used are to pull appliances, dumped cars and endless tires off landings in the national forests for SOLV weekends.

REKCUT · 11-21-06, 01:34 PM

I IMHO the T-max is not in the same class as the MM. I have seached a lot of threads and the only knock I can find on the T-max is that the speed is slower than the warn on the second roll. It is austrailan made and reliability is not a big concern. I think most winch problems are user problems anyway. If you dont take care of something it wont work no matter who makes it. I was thinking the exact same as you. Warn is the name and why not be safe rather than sorry, but I saw one in action and the speed is fine for me. You can find a 10k t-max shipped for less than $700 if you look. That means I can use this for several years and if I wear it out buy another and still be fine. Just my opion but look at the theads on here or ask some people who have a T-max if they are happy.

REKCUT · 11-21-06, 01:40 PM

lowtideride, thanks for the pics. I would love to sit down at some event and hear some of you stories. I bet you have tried to make some crazy things. Bumper job looks great.

denis · 11-21-06, 03:11 PM

I have been the winch bitch in one (muddy) event for a t-max equipped truck. What steers me away from Tmax is the painfully slow speed, and poor quality. The feewheel clutch handle assembly is eveything but waterproof and has plenty of play in it, nothing is remotely water- or mudproof and the hardware is of poor quality.
The good things about those is they are inexpensive, and the cable seems to hold up well. If you can live with the slow speed and are ready to fix the construction problems the Tmax can be a viable option for soft wheeling.

denis · 11-21-06, 03:14 PM

AFAIK TMAX, MM, KEW, GEW... are all the same product with different labels. They are supposed to have been designed in Australia but definately are built in China. NTTIAWWT if that floats your boat.

kevinmrowland · 11-21-06, 03:38 PM

Mark, thats a great idea about coiling up the winch cable as a spare. I did not realize that it would not be a coiled up tight from the winch if it was new.

Ken, thanks for the input, you understand the kind of wheeling we do and how much weight we have in our truck.
I have been watching local ads, but we are back east, remember? We dont have many off roaders around these parts, so not to many winches to be found. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

REKCUT I looked around on the net and the T-max winches actually look really nice.
They are definitely made in China by these folks,
http://winch.chinese-suppliers.com/a..._winches_3.htm
But I do not see that they make the MM or other winches and not everything that comes out of China is crap.

Wonder what the boys down under think of these?

Cruiserdrew · 11-21-06, 04:34 PM

Kevin-You might want to choose your winch based on the bumper you have to mount it. If ARB, the 8274 won't fit withough significant mods to the bumper. The M8000, M10,000, and M12,000 all fit an ARB. (Thought the 12k needs a bit of grinding of the bumper support at one edge. The M8000 has the advantage of being inexpensive and light weight. I agree with Mark-use up your cable, then go synthetic (or not, I havn't). I've wrecked one 3/8 cable, and replaced it with another I was given.

If you will custom design the bumper, than design it around the winch. I have an M12000 and an 8274. Both great winches. I would stick with Warn for the quality and the excellent support after the sale. They are the best in that department.

lowtideride · 11-21-06, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REKCUT

lowtideride, thanks for the pics. I would love to sit down at some event and hear some of you stories. I bet you have tried to make some crazy things. Bumper job looks great.

Would love to man, Ill be at GSMTR07...Im sure there will be some tall tales said around the campfire

after and or during working on project Uranus Im gonna try and turn a h42 into a rock box for Velveeta....

Satamax · 11-21-06, 05:39 PM

Hi everybody!

I think this is a proper winch for a 61

http://www.forum4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37369 That's from an 80 series, smaller than the original 60's picnic table one.

Only part left to find now is the PTO for the 60, not the one of the 80 series! I get it delivered on sunday and i can't wait till i find a PTO.

Bye.

Max.

TheJackRabbit · 11-21-06, 05:51 PM

I am curious to know if all you guys are using electric winches? Anybody using a PTO driven winch? I don't even know if there is a PTO on the FJ60 tranny, I am guessing so, never looked.

I just carry a big ass comealong rated at a genuine 4 tons. Only had to use it once along with a Hiift jack. Would like to get a winch. I have an ancient Koening pto powered winch that came off an even older Land Rover 109. I have thought about trying to rig it up to my FJ60.