intake manifold variations (FAQ)

65swb45 · 01-13-06, 12:39 AM

The question was posed in a separate thread, but I thought it would be easier to find this info later if it was posted directly on topic in it's own thread.

58-9/66: F135 Engine [3.9 liter] 1bbl cast iron intake standard, 2bbl optional. 4 bolt attachment to exhaust manifold

9/66-9/69: F145 Engine[3.9 liter] 2bbl aluminum intake with wide runners standard. 3bolt attachment to exhaust. 4 bolt bosses on the side of the intake for oil filter bracket, which attached via an adapter plate.

10/69-1/72: F145 Engine[3.9 liter] 2bbl intake with narrow runners. 69 and 70 models had one vacuum port only, for the 4wd shifter. 71 had one port on the side for the brake booster. 72 added a second one in front of the carb for filtered manifold vacuum.

1/72-12/74: F155 Engine[ 3.9 liter] 2bbl intake with narrow runners. 74 Cali intake is distinguishable because there is a large hole in the side of the intake under the carb for the Cali-spec EGR system.

1/75-1/79: 2F [4.2 liter] 2bbl intake with 5 bolt attachement to exhaust. Port behind carb for brake booster, port under carb for PCV, port in front of carb for filtered vacuum source.

1/79-9/87 2F [4.2 liter] 2bbl aluminum intake with 5 bolt attachment to exhaust. Main distinction from earlier 2F intakes is that EGR ports into the side of the intake underneath the carb, alongside the PCV system.

Poser · 01-13-06, 04:14 PM

In the F A Q

Thanks Mark man!

65swb45 · 01-13-06, 11:07 PM

WOW! My first FAQ on MUD. I'm somebody now!

Ian Rogers · 01-14-06, 12:04 AM

good info Mark

thanks

brian · 01-14-06, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65swb45

WOW! My first FAQ on MUD. I'm somebody now!

yes, but nobody will ever see it

as it seems nobody uses the faq.

65swb45 · 01-14-06, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian

yes, but nobody will ever see it

as it seems nobody uses the faq.

50 points for the man with the sodium pentathol!

lc69hunter · 12-20-06, 08:30 PM

I have a 66-69 with the wide runners and a 72 with the narrow runners. Both have all the vacuum ports I need.

I am running SOR headers, along with a Holley 350 carb. Is there any preference for the narrow vs wide runners for air/fuel flow on the intake side?

I've been running the intake with the wide runners for 2 years on a 77 2F engine.

lc69hunter · 12-21-06, 07:05 PM

bump

65swb45 · 12-21-06, 11:19 PM

Well, at first glance, a Holley 350 would seem to suggest that you are motivated by a need for speed!

Rather than just making the assumption, I'll offer this. The narrower runner manifolds are going to keep manifold vacuum higher at lower rpms, but become somewhat restrictive at high rpms. The wider manifold isn't gonna have quite as much vacuum at the lower rpms, but will obviously move more air for higher rpm operation.

I use the narrower manifold on my '68, which is pretty well built. I notice a little drop off in power above 4000 rpm because of the manifold. But I get in that RPM range so seldom, I can more than live with the trade off; I like the higher vacuum and torque at slow speed that the 'smaller' manifold gives.

Hth

Mark A.

Mark W · 12-22-06, 01:21 AM

I take the other side of the arguement. I feel that the gain in mid range and top end on a built engine is noticable.

For most stockish engines, this manifold won't gain you anything.

Mark...

lc69hunter · 12-22-06, 06:16 AM

I've been having the same argument with myself. I actually have the Holley with a 2 stage power valve for high altitude performance, not necessarily for speed, though it does provide that also. In fact, I put in a Downey cam for more mid-range/low-range torque. I have the engine balanced, so 3,400 - 3,600 or more rpm is not a problem, but I rarely am above 3,200 rpm.

I'ts a daily driver, but also gets some serious offroad work in rough country at 10000 ft elevation when I'm hunting elk.

Based upon your observations, I think I'll try the narrow runner intake, at least for now. I've had the wide one on for two years, so I know what it does.

Thanks, Mark.

Degnol · 02-28-07, 05:09 PM

Thought I'd add a couple of pics. The top one is a 9/66-9/69 wide runner intake and the bottom one is, uh later, I guess? EDIT: I meant the wide runner is on the RIGHT!

Ed

IDave · 02-28-07, 05:15 PM

That's cool that the wide runner has the firing order stamped into it.

Degnol · 02-28-07, 05:32 PM

In the first pic you can see how deep the sparation of the runners actually is. The side view shows the relative thickness of the two.

IDave.......like you need the firing order stamped on the intake. Shit, that's on the wrong side of the motor! What good would that do?!?!?!?!

AFAIK, the firing order of all 6 cylinder motors is the same. At least the Toyota F/2F is the same as my BMW.

Ed

BigRedFJ40 · 02-28-07, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IDave

That's cool that the wide runner has the firing order stamped into it.

the fireing order is easy...... 15- 36-24 Too young , too old, just right

mel lowe · 02-28-07, 07:13 PM

will any of these fit a 3fe?

Degnol · 02-28-07, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mel lowe

will any of these fit a 3fe?

Sorry, but I know nothing about 3FEs

Ed

grant5127 · 02-28-07, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mel lowe

will any of these fit a 3fe?

as in 3fefi?? no.....

lc69hunter · 02-28-07, 09:34 PM

I ended up going back to the wide runner manifold, after I had cleaned up and prepped the narrow one. I guess it came down to "the devil you know versus the devil you don't."

mel lowe · 02-28-07, 10:13 PM

So you can not use a carb intake on a 3fe block?

I want to ditch the efi

Mark W · 03-01-07, 12:14 AM

Why would you want to ditch the EFI?????

Mark...

MoCoNative · 03-01-07, 10:55 AM

Another difference to be noted is the spacing on a 1F versus 2F manifold for aircleaner placement.

I have a F155 engine. I had changed the valve cover over to a aluminum cover. I was running a Holley but decided to change back over to an Aisan carb. I sourced a 1977 carb and matching aircleaner. The carbs will all swap. I assumed the aircleaner would bolt right up also.

However the spacing of the intake is different. I had to move the aircleaner assembly away from the carb, and drop it down in order for the aircleaner and airhorn to mate up. I made custom brackets for the mounts to the valve cover and simply shimmed the large mount to the head on the distributor side of the engine. I also had to enlarge the depressions on the under side of the cleaner to clear the valve cover nuts.

I assume the 1F's had a similar spacing. But the distance from the block and height of the carb difinetely changed for the 2F's. I also have noticed the visible difference of the air cleaner in a FJ-60, compared to the 77 model and the possiblity that the dimensions of the later 2F's may be different. Does anyone know?

mel lowe · 03-01-07, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark W

Why would you want to ditch the EFI?????

Mark...

I sold the electronics from my project 62, leaving me a 3fe short block.

Now that I think about it.......

My question should have been will a 2f head bolt on to the 3fe block.

Then any 2f intake would work. The reason for the question is because

I know where there is a 66 fj40 that needs an engine rebuild.

I was considering using the 3fe long block with a 2f intake/ carb in the 66 instead of rebuilding the f in there now.

It is just a matter of putting what I have to use.

Degnol · 03-01-07, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoCoNative

Another difference to be noted is the spacing on a 1F versus 2F manifold for aircleaner placement.

I have a F155 engine. I had changed the valve cover over to a aluminum cover. I was running a Holley but decided to change back over to an Aisan carb. I sourced a 1977 carb and matching aircleaner. The carbs will all swap. I assumed the aircleaner would bolt right up also.

However the spacing of the intake is different. I had to move the aircleaner assembly away from the carb, and drop it down in order for the aircleaner and airhorn to mate up. I made custom brackets for the mounts to the valve cover and simply shimmed the large mount to the head on the distributor side of the engine. I also had to enlarge the depressions on the under side of the cleaner to clear the valve cover nuts.

I assume the 1F's had a similar spacing. But the distance from the block and height of the carb difinetely changed for the 2F's. I also have noticed the visible difference of the air cleaner in a FJ-60, compared to the 77 model and the possiblity that the dimensions of the later 2F's may be different. Does anyone know?

It would have bolted right up if you had used a 2F intake. I did the same thing on my F155. But you figured out a way to make it work anyway. More than one way to skin a PitBull, eh?

Ed

Mark W · 03-01-07, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mel lowe

I sold the electronics from my project 62, leaving me a 3fe short block.

Now that I think about it.......

My question should have been will a 2f head bolt on to the 3fe block.

Then any 2f intake would work. The reason for the question is because

I know where there is a 66 fj40 that needs an engine rebuild.

I was considering using the 3fe long block with a 2f intake/ carb in the 66 instead of rebuilding the f in there now.

It is just a matter of putting what I have to use.

If you don't have the EFI, a 2F is a better motor than a 3F.

2F head will bolt onto a 3F bolck. Make sure you use a closed chamber head or you compression wil suffer.

Mark...

snailwagon · 03-02-07, 07:24 AM

Are there any fitment issues with the wide runner manifold and your average F/2F header?

I've been wondering for a while.

Degnol · 03-02-07, 07:29 AM

Snail, I did a try-fit while my motor was on the engine stand and it looked like it would fit my SOR headers(3 into 2 into1) with little or on grindi

01-13-06, 12:39 AM	#1
65swb45 elder statesman Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: so cal, going 45 TLCA# 1086 Posts: 6,531	intake manifold variations (FAQ) The question was posed in a separate thread, but I thought it would be easier to find this info later if it was posted directly on topic in it's own thread. 58-9/66: F135 Engine [3.9 liter] 1bbl cast iron intake standard, 2bbl optional. 4 bolt attachment to exhaust manifold 9/66-9/69: F145 Engine[3.9 liter] 2bbl aluminum intake with wide runners standard. 3bolt attachment to exhaust. 4 bolt bosses on the side of the intake for oil filter bracket, which attached via an adapter plate. 10/69-1/72: F145 Engine[3.9 liter] 2bbl intake with narrow runners. 69 and 70 models had one vacuum port only, for the 4wd shifter. 71 had one port on the side for the brake booster. 72 added a second one in front of the carb for filtered manifold vacuum. 1/72-12/74: F155 Engine[ 3.9 liter] 2bbl intake with narrow runners. 74 Cali intake is distinguishable because there is a large hole in the side of the intake under the carb for the Cali-spec EGR system. 1/75-1/79: 2F [4.2 liter] 2bbl intake with 5 bolt attachement to exhaust. Port behind carb for brake booster, port under carb for PCV, port in front of carb for filtered vacuum source. 1/79-9/87 2F [4.2 liter] 2bbl aluminum intake with 5 bolt attachment to exhaust. Main distinction from earlier 2F intakes is that EGR ports into the side of the intake underneath the carb, alongside the PCV system. __________________ A carbureted man in a fuel injected world. 65SWB45, 64LWB45, 68FJ40,72V840, 76HJ45[going],84FJ60[gone], 76K5, 73Sub454, 89Sub7.4[gone], 97Sub5.7 TLCA delegate, Trail Crew-LAC TLCA, The White Trash of the Elwood Chapter my website: http://www.marksoffroad.net

01-13-06, 11:07 PM	#3
65swb45 elder statesman Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: so cal, going 45 TLCA# 1086 Posts: 6,531	WOW! My first FAQ on MUD. I'm somebody now! __________________ A carbureted man in a fuel injected world. 65SWB45, 64LWB45, 68FJ40,72V840, 76HJ45[going],84FJ60[gone], 76K5, 73Sub454, 89Sub7.4[gone], 97Sub5.7 TLCA delegate, Trail Crew-LAC TLCA, The White Trash of the Elwood Chapter my website: http://www.marksoffroad.net

01-14-06, 12:04 AM	#4
Ian Rogers IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: May 2004 Location: Westlake Village, CA TLCA# 14752 Posts: 1,292	good info Mark thanks __________________ TLCA #14752, L.A. Trail Crew http://www.marksoffroad.net My Parts Source "Our election is in 40 days, our economy is in crisis, and our nation is fighting two wars abroad. ... The American people, I believe, deserve to hear directly from myself and Sen. McCain about how do we intend to lead our country," Obama said

12-21-06, 11:19 PM	#9
65swb45 elder statesman Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: so cal, going 45 TLCA# 1086 Posts: 6,531	Well, at first glance, a Holley 350 would seem to suggest that you are motivated by a need for speed! Rather than just making the assumption, I'll offer this. The narrower runner manifolds are going to keep manifold vacuum higher at lower rpms, but become somewhat restrictive at high rpms. The wider manifold isn't gonna have quite as much vacuum at the lower rpms, but will obviously move more air for higher rpm operation. I use the narrower manifold on my '68, which is pretty well built. I notice a little drop off in power above 4000 rpm because of the manifold. But I get in that RPM range so seldom, I can more than live with the trade off; I like the higher vacuum and torque at slow speed that the 'smaller' manifold gives. Hth Mark A. __________________ A carbureted man in a fuel injected world. 65SWB45, 64LWB45, 68FJ40,72V840, 76HJ45[going],84FJ60[gone], 76K5, 73Sub454, 89Sub7.4[gone], 97Sub5.7 TLCA delegate, Trail Crew-LAC TLCA, The White Trash of the Elwood Chapter my website: http://www.marksoffroad.net Last edited by 65swb45; 12-29-06 at 09:27 PM.

02-28-07, 05:09 PM	#12
Degnol Noaccount Webwheeler Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansastitty TLCA# 14529 Posts: 6,467	Thought I'd add a couple of pics. The top one is a 9/66-9/69 wide runner intake and the bottom one is, uh later, I guess? EDIT: I meant the wide runner is on the RIGHT! Ed Attached Images __________________ There is nothing so depraved as a man in the depths of an ether binge '66FJ40, Fresh 2F, H42/Orion(By Poser...LCR4WD), ARB Front/rear(By Poser...LCR4WD), MetalTech Cage installed by Poser, Screw-ups fixed(by Poser) 4WDB Corvette Master, Mini Truck PS, 3.5" Lift, Warn 8274, 33s on stockers Last edited by Degnol; 03-02-07 at 07:23 AM.

01-13-06, 04:14 PM	#2
Poser Oh...Durka Durka Durka. Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in the shop TLCA# 1856 Posts: 13,899	In the F A Q Thanks Mark man!

12-20-06, 08:30 PM	#7
lc69hunter IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Tucson TLCA# 16917 Posts: 376	I have a 66-69 with the wide runners and a 72 with the narrow runners. Both have all the vacuum ports I need. I am running SOR headers, along with a Holley 350 carb. Is there any preference for the narrow vs wide runners for air/fuel flow on the intake side? I've been running the intake with the wide runners for 2 years on a 77 2F engine.

12-21-06, 07:05 PM	#8
lc69hunter IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Tucson TLCA# 16917 Posts: 376	bump

12-22-06, 01:21 AM	#10
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,525	I take the other side of the arguement. I feel that the gain in mid range and top end on a built engine is noticable. For most stockish engines, this manifold won't gain you anything. Mark...

12-22-06, 06:16 AM	#11
lc69hunter IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Tucson TLCA# 16917 Posts: 376	I've been having the same argument with myself. I actually have the Holley with a 2 stage power valve for high altitude performance, not necessarily for speed, though it does provide that also. In fact, I put in a Downey cam for more mid-range/low-range torque. I have the engine balanced, so 3,400 - 3,600 or more rpm is not a problem, but I rarely am above 3,200 rpm. I'ts a daily driver, but also gets some serious offroad work in rough country at 10000 ft elevation when I'm hunting elk. Based upon your observations, I think I'll try the narrow runner intake, at least for now. I've had the wide one on for two years, so I know what it does. Thanks, Mark.

02-28-07, 05:15 PM	#13
IDave IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: McCall, ID TLCA# 13705 Posts: 6,222	That's cool that the wide runner has the firing order stamped into it. __________________ 9/70 FJ40 +Rollbar 9/64 FJ45 (L) P-B with restored wiring 4/84 Toy 4x4 Mini PU "The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed: but, swol'n with wind, and the rank mist they draw, rot inwardly and foul contagion spread."--Milton

02-28-07, 05:32 PM	#14
Degnol Noaccount Webwheeler Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansastitty TLCA# 14529 Posts: 6,467	In the first pic you can see how deep the sparation of the runners actually is. The side view shows the relative thickness of the two. IDave.......like you need the firing order stamped on the intake. Shit, that's on the wrong side of the motor! What good would that do?!?!?!?! AFAIK, the firing order of all 6 cylinder motors is the same. At least the Toyota F/2F is the same as my BMW. Ed __________________ There is nothing so depraved as a man in the depths of an ether binge '66FJ40, Fresh 2F, H42/Orion(By Poser...LCR4WD), ARB Front/rear(By Poser...LCR4WD), MetalTech Cage installed by Poser, Screw-ups fixed(by Poser) 4WDB Corvette Master, Mini Truck PS, 3.5" Lift, Warn 8274, 33s on stockers

02-28-07, 07:13 PM	#16
mel lowe IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: The Sunshine State Posts: 1,648	will any of these fit a 3fe? __________________ 82 Fj60 TurkeyWizz THXAL 88 BJ62 Family Truckster http://nfcruiserheads.org/forum/index.php

02-28-07, 09:34 PM	#19
lc69hunter IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Tucson TLCA# 16917 Posts: 376	I ended up going back to the wide runner manifold, after I had cleaned up and prepped the narrow one. I guess it came down to "the devil you know versus the devil you don't."

02-28-07, 10:13 PM	#20
mel lowe IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: The Sunshine State Posts: 1,648	So you can not use a carb intake on a 3fe block? I want to ditch the efi __________________ 82 Fj60 TurkeyWizz THXAL 88 BJ62 Family Truckster http://nfcruiserheads.org/forum/index.php

03-01-07, 12:14 AM	#21
Mark W IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Greatland TLCA# 6303 Posts: 3,525	Why would you want to ditch the EFI????? Mark...

03-01-07, 10:55 AM	#22
MoCoNative IH8MUD Regular Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Craig, CO TLCA# 14418 Posts: 461	Another difference to be noted is the spacing on a 1F versus 2F manifold for aircleaner placement. I have a F155 engine. I had changed the valve cover over to a aluminum cover. I was running a Holley but decided to change back over to an Aisan carb. I sourced a 1977 carb and matching aircleaner. The carbs will all swap. I assumed the aircleaner would bolt right up also. However the spacing of the intake is different. I had to move the aircleaner assembly away from the carb, and drop it down in order for the aircleaner and airhorn to mate up. I made custom brackets for the mounts to the valve cover and simply shimmed the large mount to the head on the distributor side of the engine. I also had to enlarge the depressions on the under side of the cleaner to clear the valve cover nuts. I assume the 1F's had a similar spacing. But the distance from the block and height of the carb difinetely changed for the 2F's. I also have noticed the visible difference of the air cleaner in a FJ-60, compared to the 77 model and the possiblity that the dimensions of the later 2F's may be different. Does anyone know? __________________ 1996 T100, Stock, new to me, cool truck 1973 FJ-40, Stock, Restored, Ehsan top coming soon 1984 FJ-60, Stock, 221,000+miles 2002 Subaru Forester L, for the wifey

03-02-07, 07:24 AM	#26
snailwagon IH8MUD Addict Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: high desert, ca Posts: 852	Are there any fitment issues with the wide runner manifold and your average F/2F header? I've been wondering for a while. __________________ Clean your filthy Wok! 1969 fj55 1977 fj55 1981 Toy 4x4 Pickup 2007 Tacoma TeRD Nourishing Earth Body Care and Candle Company

03-02-07, 07:29 AM	#27
Degnol Noaccount Webwheeler Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansastitty TLCA# 14529 Posts: 6,467	Snail, I did a try-fit while my motor was on the engine stand and it looked like it would fit my SOR headers(3 into 2 into1) with little or on grindi