Clutch won't engage??

Bo87cruiser · 09-30-03, 08:40 PM

Hey Guys,
I just completed a full out clutch job on my 87 FJ 60. This included new clutch disc, pressure plate, throw-out bearing and retaining clips , pilot bearing, re-surfaced flywheel, and all new bolts. The 2F, tranny and transfer are stock and in good working order. I hoped to take it out for a test drive this evening, but when I went to put it in gear, it simply would not go (into 1st or Rev). I can put the tranny in gear with the motor off. It seems to me that the clutch is not engaging all the way or not at all. Checked the whole hydraullic system and found no leaks. I had a buddy help me bleed the system (the "hill billy" way by simply having him pump and hold the pedal while I opened and closed the bleader valve on the slave cylinder). This worked to no avail. I know that the correct method to bleed any fluid sys is with a tube and a container w/ fluid in it to watch for air bubles, but I was too agitated by then. ANYWAYS, this is my first clutch job (so keep this in mind) and any help would be greatly appreciated. Are there any adjustments that I'm missing? Something that I may have overlooked?? Thanks for your time and any help to getting the CRUISER back going is much appreciated.

Gumby · 09-30-03, 08:48 PM

You should be able to bleed it the way you did just fine. I just did a MGC earlier today that way. Was the slave cylinder pushing the clutch release lever? If the lever was moving, but the clutch is not disengaging (engaged being holding the clutch tight between the p-plate and the flywheel), then maybe the lever came out of the pivot?
If the lever is not moving, it is not uncommon for a master cylinder to blow out the seal when it is pushed further than it's normal travel. I see it a lot on brakes. When bleeding, the pedal pusher pushes the brake pedal to the floor, where the seal gets into a corroded area of the cylider bore and gets torn. You might need a master or slave.
It is also possible you did not get all of the air out. I let it gravity bleed until it drips clear, effectively flushing the system. Then I bleed it with the two person method. tap on the slave cylinder to get all the air bubbles out.

Good luck.

3_puppies · 09-30-03, 09:33 PM

Is the clutch disk facing the proper direction?

bad_religion_au · 10-01-03, 03:13 AM

is it adjusted properly? both at the pedal and at the slave?

Bo87cruiser · 10-01-03, 06:23 AM

Thanks for all of the replies! Gumby: the release fork is functioning properly and is firmly seated on the pivot bolt. 3 Puppies: the clutch disk is installed in the correct direction (the splined side of the disks that sticks out further is facing the rear of vehicle --> per instructions and Hayne's Manual.) Bad Religion: My next move is to try and tinker with the adjustment and linking at the pedal. I don't see how the slave or release cylinder can be adjusted, although when my buddy would push in the clutch the rod did not appear to have enough thro on it?? But it moved enough to cause the release fork to move considerably. This is where I am convinced my problem lies. Whether it is a slave cylinder or adjustment problem, or it just needs to be bleed some more; I don't know. Never the less I will continue to keep on trying to get HER back going. Once again, thank you for your response and any that may follow. Thanks!!

Bo87cruiser · 10-01-03, 06:24 AM

Gumby
What is gravity bleed??

snelson · 10-01-03, 07:20 AM

what was the reason for replacing the clutch? was it not engaging? was the clutch slipping, did you have a spongy pedal? why did you have to mess with bleeding the clutch? usually if a clutch is bad and you replace it you don't even have to mess with the hydraulics. if the pedal and the hydraullic system worked fine before the clutch job i would be looking at a mechanical problem ( i.e.wrong clutch, linkages not on right.etc) is the shifter installed correctly? anyway i guess these are things to ask yourself in the troubleshooting process hopfully you find your problem good luck

Bo87cruiser · 10-01-03, 07:47 AM

Stretch: The reason I replaced the clutch was because it was slipping a fair amount, but not un-driveable, and the through-out bearing was obviously bad(thought to be the root problem). I bled the clutch to try and remedy the new clutch not engaging(thought that somehow air may have sneaked in). I don't see how the shifter could be installed incorrectly, as there is only one logical way to install it. Hope this sheds some more light on the issue! Thanks for the reply, you pointed out some things that I had not thought of.

snelson · 10-01-03, 08:50 AM

i will have to admit that i have not done a clutch job on my 60 yet but i have done numerous clutch jobs in the past, so i am not sure how they are set up exactly but most clutches work the same way. another question is, is the throwout bearing installed correctly? i have seen people install them backwords and then the clutch does not work. double check part numbers call the parts store and verify they got you the right clutch. look for simple things first before you tear it down again. is your slave cylinder connected to you bellhousing correctly if it is not it will not disengage the clutch. dont overlook the obvious i am sure it is nothing to serious somtimes when you work on a project all night long you get frustrated and so the best thing to do is stop for a while recoupe and then look at the problem with a fresh mind have fun

bad_religion_au · 10-01-03, 09:09 AM

the adjuster is just a rod you turn on both the master and slave. pics to follow

bad_religion_au · 10-01-03, 09:11 AM

don't forget to re tighten those locking nuts either

pedal height should be 181mm, pedal freeplay (test untill clutch resists) should be 13-23 mm

push rod freeplay should be around 1-5mm (test with a finger on the pedal untill slight resistance is met)

release fork end play (at your slave/release cylinder) should be 4.0-5.0mm

Bo87cruiser · 10-01-03, 09:58 AM

I believe I just stumbled onto my error. Which way does the clutch disk go on? Does the protruding splined hub in the center of the disk face the crank or the tranny? I installed it with the protruding part facing the tranny, which I now believe is incorrect. I was in a hurry and the illustration in the Hayne's Manual showed it to be this way. Could any body shed some wisdom on this delimma. My fingers are crossed as I hope I don't have to pull the tranny again.

woody · 10-01-03, 10:23 AM

If you put the disc on backwards, the "protruding" part would be facing the motor, and tightening down the pressure plate would be difficult.

Try starting the vehicle with it in a "open door" facing gear and the clutch pedal pushed. If it moves, then the disc is backwards. If it freewheels and you don't drive out the door, then it's likely correct.

Just make sure you don't drive thru the back wall

Bo87cruiser · 10-01-03, 10:31 AM

Woody: that was my logic while installing the clutch. It would not make sense for the protruding splined hub of the disk to face the crank, as there would be no way or room for it to actuate. In my frustration I called the mechanic at JTO and he said that the protruding part faced the motor. Dang I'm CONFUSED!!

snelson · 10-01-03, 12:00 PM

the portruding part fits inside the pressure plate.

Gumby · 10-01-03, 06:13 PM

[quote author=Bo87cruiser link=board=1;threadid=5829;start=msg46488#msg46488 date=1065011069]
Gumby
What is gravity bleed??
[/quote]

Just opening the bleeder and letting the fluid force the air out. I always let it flow a bit before bleeding and I have found it reduces the amount of bleeding time considerably.

HI^C · 10-01-03, 09:45 PM

bit confused, wont disengage or wont engage?

"I can put the tranny in gear with the motor off."
tells me that it just grinds and will not go into gear with motor running. which means will not disengage?

with out changing the clutch master i see no reason to have to adjust rod to pedal, and yes to the adjustment on the slave.

your "hill billy" way is the only way, unless you are a sissy and have to keep the driveway clean or garge spic n span. J/J

Correct part numbers for the parts you needed, i have gotten a wrong throwout to find out it looks close but doesnt work. Also correct torqued PP bolts?

disc i believe goes bulge toward trans, look at the old one to see if it says on it?

hammerhead · 10-01-03, 10:29 PM

[quote author=Bo87cruiser link=board=1;threadid=5829;start=msg46417#msg46417 date=1064976049]
I can put the tranny in gear with the motor off.
[/quote]
It is not disengaging and I'd bet you simply put the disc in reversed. I've seen this before on a friends rig.

hammerhead · 10-01-03, 11:15 PM

[quote author=HI^C link=board=1;threadid=5829;start=msg46756#msg46756 date=1065066304]
your "hill billy" way is the only way, unless you are a sissy and have to keep the driveway clean or garge spic n span. J/J
[/quote]
The "Hillbilly" way is not the only way but is the normal way if you don't have the tools, equipment and knowledge of a mechanic.

Bo87cruiser · 10-02-03, 07:09 AM

Once again, thanks to everyone for the quality input!
I'm sorry if I may have gotten may verbage twisted around on clutch terminology. I have been really frusturated as of late and I guess I got flopped around. What a darn coincidence? I believe the clutch disk is also flopped around backwards as well :slap:. I am convinced that this is my problem after much trouble shooting. The clutch will not DISENGAGE and allow the tranny to go into gear. All of the hydraulics are doing thier job, so I'm left with a backwards clutch disk. This is how it is installed: The protruding splined hub(that the input shaft travels through) is facing the tranny, not the protruding part with the springs/rubber bushings. (On this disk one side has the springs/bushings sticking out further to one side; I have this installed facing the crank.) Can anyone give me a DEFINITIVE answer-- I keep getting alot of "I think"'s and "I'm pretty sure" 's, but no for sure answers. I wish I could post a picture, but I hope may sorry description will suffice for now. Thanks And HI^C: I'm not a sissy

woody · 10-02-03, 07:15 AM

the disc has two sides, obviously...one side has only some round springs protrucing, the other side has a center ~6" diameter section that protrudes into the pressure plate. IF properly installed, you should be able to lay the disc on the flywheel and the disc surface should touch all around...no interference from the flywheel bolts or anything. If backwards, the ~6" center will be hitting the flywheel-to-crank mounting bolts AND the disc will "not quite" touch the flywheel surface...like a 1/8" gap or so.

With the pressure plate installed, the disc is smashed into the plate and the center is smashed into the flywheel mount bolts. It's likely flexed to touch the surface of the flywheel too, so a visual inspection may not be obvious.

Get me mad enuf and I can change a tranny in 2-1/2 hours....start to finish. Red Green should be on UPN Thurs nights at 7:30, that's always been my motivator (seriously, few years ago, watched that show after discovering the trans I had bolted up had a bent mainshaft...show done at 8pm, I was back in the house by 10:15 with the tranny-t-case replace and everything buttoned up for a trail ride the next day...lol)

woody · 10-02-03, 07:18 AM

this side faces AWAY from the flywheel, and "inside" the pressure plate

theo · 10-02-03, 09:50 AM

Bo87, for what it's worth, I put my pilot bushing in backwards once and got pretty much the same symptoms as you. The transmission input shaft gouged its way into the bushing and bound up. That was on a Chevy, though.

Wouldn't shift into gear without grinding and jumping, and yep I would have drove through the garage wall when I started it in gear except I used reverse. Sent the dog packing that time and he still grimaces when I invite him into the shop. Here boy!

60wag · 10-02-03, 10:48 AM

With the inspection cover on the bottom of the bellhousing removed, you should be able to see the flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate. It sounds like if the clutch disk is backwards there should be a small gap between the clutch disk and the flywheel. Have someone press on the clutch pedal to release the pressure plate. Can you see a gap?

cruiser_guy · 10-02-03, 11:58 AM

The springs and other junk protrude to one side ONLY and that side faces the transmission. There is not nearly enough room to have it work in reverse. I'm surprised you could even install it that way!!
Definitely sounds like you've got it in backwards.

Bo87cruiser · 10-02-03, 12:17 PM

Cruiser_Guy: I now see the error of my ways. I was in a hurry when doing the clutch install and just took a quick glance at the Hayne's and slapped it all together :'(. Got everything buttoned up and tried to go for a test ride. WRONG!! The tranny doesn't like a mis-installed clutch disk.

I feel allright about having to take the tranny out again as I have a heavy duty tans. jack, but man I feel like a ROYAL DUMB ARSE! :slap: Anyways, this has been a great learning experience for me and this board has played a huge part in the process. I feel confident I can correct this problem in a lot less time than before. Thanks for all of the input, especially the pictures. I always liked books with alot of pictures when I was in school.

Theo: watch out for those walls!

fsusteve · 10-02-03, 12:29 PM

No reason to feel like a dumb ass, you have just been schooled the best way, from actual experience. The more you do, the more confident you become, better than paying some clown tons of money to fix yer stuff.

hammerhead · 10-02-03, 09:19 PM

Just think how much faster you can do it the second time.

cruiser_guy · 10-02-03, 10:34 PM

Talk about feeling stupid, I just went though a bunch of old papers on my 'Cruiser before I was brave enough to do my own wrenching (I've had my '82 BJ60 'Cruiser for nearly 15 years). I could have got lots of extras for the labour costs I spent years ago!!

Bo87cruiser · 10-03-03, 06:30 AM

Hey Guys, thanks for all of the positive comments. In a way I guess it's kinda funny (depends on who your asking). I called my dad, who is a accomplished wrencher himself, and explained to him my situation. After he caught his breath from laughing at me so hard and asking my mom if I was really his son (HA, HA), he digressed, and told me that even though I fudged up, the experience was invaluable. Which I totally agree, but man I'm just so dang anxious to get it back rolling.

Anyways, if I can convince the girlfriend to play "mechanic" with me on a Friday night, the CRUISER will be ready to go by tommorow.
Once again, thanks for all of the input and the encouragement.