[wantatlc]

so, my FJ would not turn over today. I guess the battery just go to low as I turned the key and nothing. 2.8 year old Red Top Optima and I have not driven her in a month given my busy schedule.

Anyway, no biggie as my buddy was over so we can just jump it. Got out the cables, he hooked them up and we went to jump it and the jumper cables started smoking at the connection points on both the FJ and the car - started to melt the plastic near the clamps. I have never seen such a thing. I looked at the cables and, not sure if it really matters, he had hooked up the ground to the (-) pole on the FJ battery and not grounded to the frame. I figured that was the issue. Well, I regrounded to the frame and same thing.

We went on to try this 5 times and every time - even with nicer 2nd pair of heavier gauge cables just to test - the moment I attach the ground on the FJ I get some sparks as I clamp to the frame and smoke starts to form (at connection in car and FJ) as the plastic melts and the cables and FJ battery get warm. and the car is not even running or turned on.

Is this a battery issue with the Optima or something bigger? I have a little device that I can stick into a cars lighter that gives you electrical system 4 light feedback - like if the battery is dead or low - and it does not even light up now. Turn the key, the AMP gauge does not even deflect. absolute 0 electrical activity.

WTF is going on? I have never seen this. Jumped cars many dozen of times before in minutes with never an issue. Plus, never had issues before like this with the FJ. Last time I drove it... zero issues. Just parked it inside.

FYI, 2 months ago I replaced the old starter and solenoid. but had driven it 10 times since I did that. and now.....

[CruisinGA]

Optima's have a lower internal resistance than typical lead acid batteries, so it is possible that your severely drained Optima was accepting a charge at a higher rate than either pair of jumper cables could handle.

It is also possible that the battery malfunctioned and shorted out.

If it was me, I would look up Optima's charging instructions on their website and hook your optima up to a charger. Also, charging up dead batteries can be pretty tough on alternators.

[Eshu Elegua]

x2 on Cruisinga said, double check all the grounds points and re-cleaned again,scrap out paint or rust, upgrade negative cables and the + for better quality cables...welding 2 ga cables are very good

[wantatlc]

some basic charging data, but no jump insructions on their site.

cleaned both terminals, checked power cable at starter and ground on the engine block... all are clean and good... neg cables are fairly new and in great shape... that did not address the issue.

Seems I could go to harbor freight and get a 12v battery charger or maybe a float charger?

think any major damage was done to battery or other component like the solenoid? optima has a 3yr warranty.. I wonder if I should try to invoke that - I have 1 month to do so.

[CruisinGA]

I would try to charge it with anything but a float charger.

I suggested the instructions because some "smart" chargers will not charge a dead gel-cell, because of their lower resistance, the charger thinks the battery isn't a battery. Their instructions explain how to get around this issue.

I don't see how you could damage your starter solenoid by jumping off your dead battery, even if the the jumper cables were smoking.

[edwjmcgrath]

Float charger from harbor freight says to not use on AGC battery,

Dumb question. What happens if you disconnect your battery and just jump to your cables from the other car.
That will eliminate your battery from being the prob.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Float charger from harbor freight says to not use on AGC battery,

Dumb question. What happens if you disconnect your battery and just jump to your cables from the other car.
That will eliminate your battery from being the prob.

you mean hook the pwr and ground cables from the Fj right to the jumper cables and then hook the jumpers to my car? essentially using the battery from the car?

is there not a risk then to my car?

[wantatlc]

also - using a test light, when I ground the test light on the - terminal, the + terminal barely triggers the test light - but it does trigger it. BUT, if I ground the test light to anything but the - terminal, I cannot trigger the light. only grounding to the - terminal... that is odd, no?

& multimeter shows 4.75 volts

[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

you mean hook the pwr and ground cables from the Fj right to the jumper cables and then hook the jumpers to my car? essentially using the battery from the car?

is there not a risk then to my car?

If you're worried, disconnect the cables from both batteries and jump from the good battery to the bad truck.

[cjgoode]

I would take the battery to Autozone or advanced auto and have them put it on their machine that tests battery. Unless your jumper cables were in real bad shape I bet your battery is bad. A month would not be long enough to drain a good battery unless you left something on. Likely the not able to start and not able to jump it are related to a bad bettery.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

If you're worried, disconnect the cables from both batteries and jump from the good battery to the bad truck.

ahh... I see what your saying. yes, I could do that. at that point, might as well just take the battery out of the car and put it in the truck so I can get it back into the garage (we pushed it out to work on it).

BTW, I see no notation about the "AGC" float charger on HF website, but I will not buy it nonetheless.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by cjgoode

I would take the battery to Autozone or advanced auto and have them put it on their machine that tests battery. Unless your jumper cables were in real bad shape I bet your battery is bad. A month would not be long enough to drain a good battery unless you left something on. Likely the not able to start and not able to jump it are related to a bad bettery.

I did not mention, I have a kill switch. that kill switch was set to off for the month. so technically, nothing should pull and drain it.

both sets of cables were pristine.

[Pin_Head]

You have some kind or short; either the battery or the truck. Disconnect the battery and try jumping it. Also jump to the battery only. that way you will know whether the short is in your truck wiring or the battery. When you connect to the truck with everything turned off, there should be no sparks.

[cjgoode]

I bet your batter is shorted out then if the kill switch was off. Here in FL with the heat batteries can short and dies when not driving, good thing happens udually less then warranty period. Never had one smoke the cables, but have had them where you cannot even jump them at all. Usually goes from being a 100% good battery to a 100% bad battery instantly.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

You have some kind or short; either the battery or the truck. Disconnect the battery and try jumping it. Also jump to the battery only. that way you will know whether the short is in your truck wiring or the battery. When you connect to the truck with everything turned off, there should be no sparks.

sorry, but how are these different "Disconnect the battery and try jumping it. Also jump to the battery only."?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by cjgoode

I bet your batter is shorted out then if the kill switch was off. Here in FL with the heat batteries can short and dies when not driving, good thing happens udually less then warranty period. Never had one smoke the cables, but have had them where you cannot even jump them at all. Usually goes from being a 100% good battery to a 100% bad battery instantly.

when you have the kill switch off, the battery does not spark when you try to connect jumpers to it and the jumpers do not smoke and melt. The moment you turn the kill switch to live, that second the jumper cables start to smoke - even when cars not on - if the cables are already connected. if you try to connect them then, they spark. so the issue arises the second you are completing the ground to the vehicle with the switch.. does this imply it is in the trucks wiring or battery or undecided yet?

also, why can you only trigger the test light with the (-) battery pole and not any other ground in the rig? that seems illogical.

electrical is not my strong suit - just enough to be dangerous and get around at a better than basic level

[nuclearlemon]

do you have access to a dual color testlight? if so, test the polarity of the battery. it happens...i've got a agm battery with reversed polarity sitting on my driveway. took quite a while to figure out that one.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by nuclearlemon

do you have access to a dual color testlight? if so, test the polarity of the battery. it happens...i've got a agm battery with reversed polarity sitting on my driveway. took quite a while to figure out that one.

do not have one.

reversed polarity - it seems that issue would raise it's head instantly upon putting the battery in.

[craptabulous]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

when you have the kill switch off, the battery does not spark when you try to connect jumpers to it and the jumpers do not smoke and melt. The moment you turn the kill switch to live, that second the jumper cables start to smoke - even when cars not on - if the cables are already connected. if you try to connect them then, they spark. so the issue arises the second you are completing the ground to the vehicle with the switch.. does this imply it is in the trucks wiring or battery or undecided yet?

also, why can you only trigger the test light with the (-) battery pole and not any other ground in the rig? that seems illogical.

electrical is not my strong suit - just enough to be dangerous and get around at a better than basic level

your night switch is on the ground side ? , if so you won't have it light up unless the switch is on or you put it directly on the - terminal .

i think you have a big dead short in your wiring , one of the heaviest gauge wires you have most likely . it is grounding out , rubbed through or something . start at the battery + and work your way down till you find the melted / burned / grounded / wire .

if your night switch was on the + side i would of possibly blamed it but you are usuing it on the - side so there is nothing wrong with it .

[craptabulous]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

do not have one.

reversed polarity - it seems that issue would raise it's head instantly upon putting the battery in.

not until your night switch is turned on .

a digital multi meter will also show polarity , if you hook the leads up backwards you will get - numbers . if you don't have one you can buy a cheap one for like 25$ its a better tool then a test light .

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by craptabulous

your night switch is on the ground side ? , if so you won't have it light up unless the switch is on or you put it directly on the - terminal .

i think you have a big dead short in your wiring , one of the heaviest gauge wires you have most likely . it is grounding out , rubbed through or something . start at the battery + and work your way down till you find the melted / burned / grounded / wire .

if your night switch was on the + side i would of possibly blamed it but you are usuing it on the - side so there is nothing wrong with it .

yes, kill switch is on the ground side - I always had it that way from the day I installed it. my logic was it is better to disconnect ground first, so it made sense to put disconnect into the neg cable.

I will check the + cable from battery down to the solenoid, but I am pretty sure it is perfect. could it be the solenoid since that is what the biggest power wire is tied to?

if I do not find that fat + wire off the battery too be bad, how do I go from there in finding the "short" - hundreds of feet or wire in a 30+ yr old rig hacked together by numerous owners... how do you even start or process it?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by craptabulous

not until your night switch is turned on .

a digital multi meter will also show polarity , if you hook the leads up backwards you will get - numbers . if you don't have one you can buy a cheap one for like 25$ its a better tool then a test light .

I do have a digital multimeter. I tested the battery at 4.75 volts.. but to be honest, I have 2 degrees and neither taught me how to correctly setup the meter (which dial position to select for what test) so not even really sure how to incorporate that into this process to solve my issue.

[DanS HJ-45]

The position of the knob depends on the type of DMM you have. Post pics if you have any.

But basically, you're looking for a VDC reading, with a range of 0-20 probably (anything over 14 is good). VDC will have straight lines, and not squiggly lines (the squiggly lines indicate AC Voltage).

Once you've done that, touch the two leads together. It should read zero. Then, put the ground (usually the black lead, probably marked with a GND or a ground symbol) on the negative side of the battery, and the positive lead on the positive side. You will get a number, which should be about 12V in an ideal world, but the + or - sign (probably just nothing or a minus sign) will denote the polarity. If you have the leads set up correctly, then you get a positive number. If backwards, you get a negative number. That is: assuming you have a good battery. If you want to test it, just try it on a working car, and then compare your cruiser to that. That's the easiest way to make sure the battery didn't switch polarity.

Dan

[LAMBCRUSHER]

BIG X2 on the dead short. In the always hot circuit- either the big wire to your starter, or the 10 gg 12 volts to your amp meter/ig. $ (plus 12 to your switch- the first place the circuit goes to, before the switched loads.) Possibly the starter/solenoid are shorted. Check wires first.

[Brian in Oregon]

Sure you didn't turn the battery jumper cable leads around?

[Pin_Head]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

sorry, but how are these different "Disconnect the battery and try jumping it. Also jump to the battery only."?

You remove the battery and try jumping to the cable ends. Then you try jumping to the removed and disconnected battery. One of them will smoke the cables.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by DanS HJ-45

Once you've done that, touch the two leads together. It should read zero. Then, put the ground (usually the black lead, probably marked with a GND or a ground symbol) on the negative side of the battery, and the positive lead on the positive side. You will get a number, which should be about 12V in an ideal world, but the + or - sign (probably just nothing or a minus sign) will denote the polarity. If you have the leads set up correctly, then you get a positive number. If backwards, you get a negative number. That is: assuming you have a good battery. If you want to test it, just try it on a working car, and then compare your cruiser to that. That's the easiest way to make sure the battery didn't switch polarity.

Dan

4.75 on the rig versus 13.5 or so on my car

Originally Posted by LAMBCRUSHER

BIG X2 on the dead short. In the always hot circuit- either the big wire to your starter, or the 10 gg 12 volts to your amp meter/ig. $ (plus 12 to your switch- the first place the circuit goes to, before the switched loads.) Possibly the starter/solenoid are shorted. Check wires first.

wire check monday morning. hoping no bad starter/solenoid - but I guess if it is not an obvious wire issue I can see right off, I will pull it and have it tested with the battery. I just have this suspicion the main larger wires to and from block and 2 and from starter are just fine.

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

Sure you didn't turn the battery jumper cable leads around?

yep

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

You remove the battery and try jumping to the cable ends. Then you try jumping to the removed and disconnected battery. One of them will smoke the cables.

likely try this next - after inspect wires first of course. I follow your point. takes each one out of the loop. 1 of them will smoke the cables and I will know. heck, I should not even have to try to actually "jump" anything as currently, just hooking up the jumpers and they smoke - car does not even have to be on.

btw - something I notice - which was never an issue and may not be but that now does not make sense. I have had the kill switch for years - I have a heavy gauge ground wire coming from lower engine block to the kill switch and then from kill switch to battery BUT also another ground wire on the same bolt mount as the one from the engine block goes to an existing bolt on the fender. why would there be 2? I would not have added the second, it would have been there and I bet my original photos show it. so I am sure I just added in the switch and used what was in place, but now that I think about it.. why a ground from the engine block AND another off to the fender??

[MoCoNative]

Well, what I see is a drain and short somewhere. The voltage of 4.75 on your cruiser battery says the battery is dead, and jumping it may not start it period, because the dead battery is taking so much juice off the car that none is left to start the cruiser. this high charge rate may be one reason for the smoked cables. In stock form a Cruiser would have had a ground wire from the block, and or the starter bolt to the frame and then a second ground wire from the battery to the frame.

You may still have a bad ground issue, DC systems require power to flow from the positive side of the battery to the negative side of the battery. The starter is the biggest draw of power, or amps on the system. Bad wires, due to corrosion in the wires, or corroded attachments increases the resistance, thus requiring more power, or amps to push the power through. Not having a good ground from the starter or block to the battery requires the power to push through the block, then some bolt, then maybe a bracket, etc, until it finds it's way to the battery. In other words, it's like plumbing. A straight run of big pipe will flow more, than a crooked clogged up and even broken pipe.

The second ground wire to the fender doesn't do much I would guess, but you do need to ground the frame of the rig and the engine block back to the battery. All of the lights, heater blower, guages and stuff ground the body. they rely on the steel of the body to carry the negative current to the frame and then to the battery. Newer Toyotas began running dedicated ground wires all over to get better energy flow without relying on rusted body mount bolst and such to carry the load.

I had trouble with grounds, ended up running everything to one point and then to the battery just to be sure.

My theory, is you had something drawing power and draining the battery the last time you drove it. The rig will run off the alternator, especially if you are not running lights and stuff, pretty much forever, even if the battery is dead. So your battery may have been dead when you stopped it last, but it will not restart, as you have noticed.

Try like pinhead said, take the leads loose and see if it will jump with the battery out of the equation. Check your grounds and battery cable. Elimate any shorts or drains, and just go trade the battery in for a new one, if you can get a good warranty deal. I've never had much luck getting even a good new battery to work well again after it discharged all the way down. Sometimes it just ruins them.

[wanabecruisen]

You didn't say anything about having one but if you have an electric winch you will want to isolate that as well for testing purposes. I'm betting bad cable to the starter or bad starter. If the cable is good I would take the starter off and take it to a shop to have it's condition checked.

[edwjmcgrath]

Chech the optima site for recharging a dead battery. They require a different procedure from normal batteries. You will need another battery to parallel the dead one.