[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

BTW, we are talking about the solenoid portion of the starter when we are talking "starter", correct? That is what I was testing... power bolt on solenoid and touching body of solenoid.. correct?

Correct.

[nuclearlemon]

looks like you got it solved, but for future reference, the larger red wire you described does fit the description of where you would have a fusible link. on some, it's cast into the postive terminal with the large wire, on some it just connects to it.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

There were several things that it could have been until you eliminated them. Battery, cable insulation, one of the other wires connected to the battery...

It sounds to me like the story is that your starter developed a short that wiped out your battery. When you tried to jump it, the short showed up as the sparking/melting jumper cables.

What I am unclear on is why the starter developed this short. We'll probably never know unless you take apart the solenoid before you take it back. Also, how did the original starter fail and could this be related?

If Costco does not replace your battery, you should consider getting a charger and try to revive the battery. It's a good thing to have anyway.

Finally, I'm not a mechanic (just an electrical engineer that has owned a lot of old cars) so I could be missing something here. My advice is worth what you paid for it.

Luck.

for free advice.. I'll take it. especially when I would have had issue solving this myself.

the original starter just failed - click, click, click is all it would do at times and finally, just only clicked and never would fire it up one dat... took it to pep's and they said it was toast. this time, no click no nothing. just dead battery that now seems to be tied to the starter. BUT what is odd is how could it drain the battery if I had a kill switch on the - side and the kill switch was set to off?? that is odd to me. should it not be on the - side. how can it drain if - is shut off?

yes, I plan to get a charger. maybe ask for one for xmas hope they swap it though as I am in the 3 years.

[Pin_Head]

It was almost certainly a shorted starter/solenoid from the beginning, because the chassis power feeds are much smaller gauge wire than the jumper cables, so they would have smoked first if they were shorted. Sorry for the delayed insight.

[wantatlc]

no reason to say sorry for anything.. heck, it may have taken 24 hrs - but that is a small inconvenience to get to the issue freely with everyones help - which I appreciate..

Now, I need to get ready to deal with Pep Boys and Costco.

It was a remanufactured starter I now see. I wonder if that could be part of the issue for why it went bad.

[fjwagon]

Interesting to say the least, my is guess is you possibly had a loose connection(more current) in your starter and over time will cause components to breakdown a cause a short or maybe you had worn out brushes.... or your battery had a short cell and made it worse when you put a load on it. It's hard to tell. hopefully you can get it all sqared away.

[edwjmcgrath]

The short is most likely in the solenoid/magnetic switch part of the starter. This should be independent of the brushes (which are most likely fine in a 1 month old starter) and the battery. If I had to take a guess, I would guess that there was a mechanical failure causing the internals of the solenoid to touch the frame of the solenoid.

Just an educated guess from an old geezer. Part of why I bought an FJ is it is simple and simple makes sense. Last car I completely understood was a 1980 Triumph Spitfire.

[bsevans]

If you bought the battery at Costco they will give you your money back. I did not see how long it had been since you bought it. I've returned 4 Optimas (2 Red Top and 2 Yellow Top). Costco did not ask for a proof of purchase. They only checked the build date to see if it was a full refund or pro-rated.

[wantatlc]

yep, bought at Costco 1 month shy of 3 years just under the full warranty wire. they say they still have them, so was thinking of getting the same.

OR, should I take the money and run and get something else?

[Pin_Head]

My Optima red top is 9 years old. I keep expecting it to fail, but it keeps on starting. YMMV

[wanabecruisen]

Glad you sorted it out. As Pin Head said, I was almost sure it was the starter but you have to follow a logical process to eleminate the non-issues. Only large feeds in direct short (starter, winch, etc) could melt jumper cables before toasting smaller gage wire.

Easy fix, under warranty=a good day. Rebuilt components save a few bucks but you get a bad one once in a while. Some poor fool making minimum wage prolly had his head up his you know what when he went through "your" starter. Oh well.

As for the Optima, get another if they will exchange. I personally prefer the yellow tops and have had great luck with them as compared to the red tops but that topic has been beat to death on POR. In any case you should be good to go shortly!

[bsevans]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

yep, bought at Costco 1 month shy of 3 years just under the full warranty wire. they say they still have them, so was thinking of getting the same.

OR, should I take the money and run and get something else?

As my Optimas have diminished in their ability to fully charge I have replaced them with the Sears Platinum and really like them. I have two in my turbo diesel and the engine has never turned over this fast starting. They are expensive but come with a much better warranty (Platinum P-4 - Group Size 34/78DT; 48 months full coverage and 100 months pro-rated).

[wantatlc]

I just kept it easy and let costco swap me for a new one. So, got another red top.

once I get the starter swapped, will post up and report on what the result was.

[wantatlc]

UPDATE: we were wrong. the starter is totally fine. passed tests 100%.

Now what?

I have a perfect starter and a brand new battery, but I am afraid to hook up the battery as I bet the moment I do, it will start to fry. If jumping it from the car direct to the rig causes melting/smoke, then the new battery will as well.

I am now backed to being stumped and not even sure where to start.

[Coolerman]

Too weird... Post up some pics of the wiring so we can see what you have. Someone may spot something that would help you.

[edwjmcgrath]

When you say that the starter passed tests 100%, was one of the tests measuring the resistance from the solenoid terminal to the case? You did this test and it failed. Now it passes?

[wantatlc]

what would you like to see?

Page #2 has the alternator photo - speaking of which, could that be the issue? The reason I ask is that I had to get the rig in the garage to make it easier to work on since it was outside. So, I went ahead and hooked up the starter and brand new Optima battery and wired it all up as it was the only way. it fired right up, I pulled the rig in and shut it down - for 1 minute I had it on.

BUT, in that 1 minute I noticed 3 quick things..

1) the stock AMP gauge deflected left to discharging (-30)

2) the after market volt gauge deflected left into the yellow zone (11-12 volts) and not right to it's normal green zone I see (13-14 volts)

3) the little test gauge I had plugged into the lighter that tells me condition of the alternator and battery showed the battery as yellow light status of "recharge" (11.8-12.35v) and not the normal green "charged" status (12.4-12.6v) zone AND the Alternator system lights did not even show up or turn on, like it is not even there. Which is never the case.

does any of this shed light on the issue? Could it be the alternator?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

When you say that the starter passed tests 100%, was one of the tests measuring the resistance from the solenoid terminal to the case? You did this test and it failed. Now it passes?

I did the test as you asked, yes. I got the numbers I reported here. Unless I did something wrong in my test, but I think if you reread, it seemed clear what you asked, what I did, and what I reported. Agreed?

I have the test report. They hook it up to that machine and it just says "PASS" and this:

Voltage, current, solenoid, chatter, drive extension PASSED

High Voltage 16.5 low 8 actual 11.56
Current 120 low 40 actual 99.77
Solenoid off amps 1 low 0.00 actual 0.00
Chatter time 800.00 low 0.00 actual 0.00

[Pin_Head]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

does any of this shed light on the issue? Could it be the alternator?

You still have a short somewhere. If it is not the starter, then that leaves all the other wires that you have attached to + post of the battery. Disconnect all of them and then attach them one at a time and look for big sparks from the wire that is shorted.

It still doesn't make sense that any of these wires would be the source of the short because they are much smaller wires than your average jumper cable and would smoke and melt before the jumper cable would.

Don't leave your battery connected until you fix the short.

[edwjmcgrath]

Your ammeter says that it's discharging because you still have a short in your electrical system.
Your battery discharged very quickly because it's a big short.
I hope you disconnected the battery after you got it in the garage.

There aren't many things that could do this. It ought to be simple.
Maybe you need to take some pictures because there's either something you're missing or their test didn't check for a short in the solenoid. When they said that the starter was good, I would have pulled out my meter and showed them the short. Did you test the starter yourself again when it was out?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

You still have a short somewhere. If it is not the starter, then that leaves all the other wires that you have attached to + post of the battery. Disconnect all of them and then attach them one at a time and look for big sparks from the wire that is shorted.

It still doesn't make sense that any of these wires would be the source of the short because they are much smaller wires than your average jumper cable and would smoke and melt before the jumper cable would.

Don't leave your battery connected until you fix the short.

I have not left the battery connected... no doubt. only connect for a minute at a time as I run tests.

I have those 6 wires attached to the + post.. I just tried all of them 1 at a time as you suggested and here is what I found.. 1 of the wires caused a spark and started up my stereo. removed them all and did it again, same 1 wire caused a spark & started up the stereo. no other wire sparked. so followed that power wire into the cabin, it splits off goes to the stereo & the 2ndairy gas gauge and a fake LED alarm light. I traced it to the stereo and it went to an inline fuse. removed the fuse and now the stereo is dead and no more spark at the + pole when I rub the contact across the + pole.

what does this tell you?

Also, after I did this I started it up quick, same issue with the alternator as per above.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Your ammeter says that it's discharging because you still have a short in your electrical system.
Your battery discharged very quickly because it's a big short.
I hope you disconnected the battery after you got it in the garage.

There aren't many things that could do this. It ought to be simple.
Maybe you need to take some pictures because there's either something you're missing or their test didn't check for a short in the solenoid. When they said that the starter was good, I would have pulled out my meter and showed them the short. Did you test the starter yourself again when it was out?

simple I have now spent hours hooking up batteries, trying to charge, test, run wires down.. it actually seems rather difficult.

not leaving battery connected. just quick on and off when testing as fst as I can to minimize drain/use..

will gladly take photos, but of what exactly would it help to show (battery, alternator, starter)?

I did not take my meter to Pepboys... I trust their system says Passed as it passed. I put that on them. no, I did not test the starter again while it was out of the rig given their results. I could do it all over again and test it, but I really think their test would catch it as the paper clearly says solenoid passed. thats what the machine does. I do not know enough to argue the case and they would not help me if it says passed like it did.

[CruisinGA]

Is it possible that the positive cable running to solenoid from battery rubbing against frame etc and grounding out?

[edwjmcgrath]

Here's a fairly simple test. Take the cable from battery to starter and disconnect it from the starter. Connect it to the battery. Take a jumper cable and connect one end (carefuly) to the starter terminal and quickly connect the other end to the cable that normally connects to the starter. Do you get a big spark? If so, the short is in the starter or something connected to the starter. If you've got help, you could probably quickly start the car and then disconnect the jumper cable. With the starter disconnected, the ammeter and voltmeter ought to read normally. (EDIT: Sorry, this last part won't work if the coil primary is fed from the starter.)

Photo of starter (with wires connected) might show something useful.

[Pin_Head]

Is your alternator B+ wire (the big one) connected directly to your battery? If so, this would cause your amp meter to read discharge continuously. It would show more discharge with more things turned on.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by CruisinGA

Is it possible that the positive cable running to solenoid from battery rubbing against frame etc and grounding out?

no - checked it again. and checked for tears or anything else. nothing. actually, it touches nothing between battery and starter.

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

Is your alternator B+ wire (the big one) connected directly to your battery? If so, this would cause your amp meter to read discharge continuously. It would show more discharge with more things turned on.

no, the big B+ wire from the alternator is not connected to the battery.. it heads off into the cabin - where to, I am not sure. but not direct to the battery.

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Here's a fairly simple test. Take the cable from battery to starter and disconnect it from the starter. Connect it to the battery. Take a jumper cable and connect one end (carefuly) to the starter terminal and quickly connect the other end to the cable that normally connects to the starter. Do you get a big spark? If so, the short is in the starter or something connected to the starter. If you've got help, you could probably quickly start the car and then disconnect the jumper cable. With the starter disconnected, the ammeter and voltmeter ought to read normally. (EDIT: Sorry, this last part won't work if the coil primary is fed from the starter.)

Photo of starter (with wires connected) might show something useful.

did this test.. got some odd results. so, I disconnected the + cable at starter, hooked up 1 end of the jumper cables (+ not that it matters which color) to the starter, hooked up the matching end carefully to the hanging cable and no spark BUT then I went to start it and not only would it not turn over - sounded and acted like dead battery with barely any crank power - but when I went to take off the jumper cable then I got huge sparks and the smoking melting??? I tried it again and similar thing. I then went back to the standard connections and wired + cable back up to the starter and viola.. starts right up, no sparks. WTF is that about? It fires up when I go direct + cable from battery to starter but put the jumper cable inbetween the battery and starter and this oddness??

Also, something to note... the key. Over the years, at times the key is hard to turn and kind of gets stuck. I use silicon spray to loosen it up and all is fine. Well, recently once when I turned off the key I noticed the starter kept going for a second and it was tough to turn off the key - like it thought the key was still inserted and on! just for a second. WELL this time I went to undo the jumper cables and I put the system back together to start it (+ back to starter and to battery and - back on battery) as it would be. I went to attach the - cable to battery as my last step and massive sparks & the engine tried to turn over but the key was not in the ignition or on!!! it was as though power was flowing. put the key back in quick and turned key to 2nd position and back off thinking it might close this assumed open circuit.. no sparks this time when I went to put the - cable on the battery. Point is, it almost seemed like rig thinks the key is in and ignition is turned on. is something in ignition/key area a possibility here since it seems other things we are focusing on are not yielding results? It kind of makes most sense when look at everything as a whole.

[wantatlc]

any thoughts on that above odd ignition issue I might have uncovered?

[CruisinGA]

Yeah- change your ignition switch. Sounds like it is sticking.

[wantatlc]

anyway we can be sure of this before I do look at doing that? any tests I can perform to verify and be definitive. AND would the ignition switch even cause all these battery drain, short, spark issues?

also, anyway I can fix what I have? Are you talking the ignition cylinder and key or the actual "ignition switch" wiring harness.

[edwjmcgrath]

On the plus side of the battery here are only two big wires. One goes to the starter. The other goes thru the fusible link, feeds B+, goes thru the firewall to the ammeter, fuse box and ignition switch. There has to be a short in one of these wires. I thought that you had disconnected the second wire and determined that the short was the starter. If the wire to the ignition/fuse box was still connected then I suppose the issue could be there. If you're having sticking issues with your ignition switch and you've not traced and examined the only other wire that could be the problem, then of course you should do that. Pull the ignition switch and wiring and trace the feed from the battery.