[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

You remove the battery and try jumping to the cable ends. Then you try jumping to the removed and disconnected battery. One of them will smoke the cables.

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

You have some kind or short; either the battery or the truck. Disconnect the battery and try jumping it. Also jump to the battery only. that way you will know whether the short is in your truck wiring or the battery. When you connect to the truck with everything turned off, there should be no sparks.

okay... here is what I found

car battery hooked up to FJ battery that is wired up as it would be normally = sparks & melt

car battery hooked up to FJ battery that is NOT wired up (removed + and - wires so they are out of loop) = no sparks or melting

car battery hooked up direct to FJ + and - wires (so battery is out of loop) = sparks & melt

I did not try to jump, just made connections.

thoughts?

[edwjmcgrath]

If when you say "sparks" you mean serious sparks and melting wires, it sounds like you've eliminated the battery and any shorts in the FJ that are independent of the ignition switch.
If the car is wired correctly, everything else except the starter should be fused.
I would suspect a short in the starter or possibly a short between the + cable and the frame that went away when you took the cable off the battery.

I wouid inspect the + battery cable carefully for worn insulation, then I would try to start the car.

[Pin_Head]

You have a big time short somewhere in the high current side of your chassis wiring. Check wires to the starter for obvious shorts. If good, start disconnecting stuff and check again. Disconnect the wire to the B+ post of the alternator, the battery cable to the starter, the fusible link at the battery cable + post, etc until you find the short.

[wantatlc]

checked main gauge - wires from engine block to kill switch and kill switch to frame and kill switch to battery. all fine.

checked main gauge + wire from battery to the starter. all fine.

cleaned all connections for all of them.

it seems the first thing I need to do is to get a fresh working battery, no?

[edwjmcgrath]

Sorry, I misread your post. You only eliminated your battery as the cause. Don't try to start it.
You have a big short somewhere in the + side. If you are melting jumper cables then I would be looking at big wires. Starter, between battery and fusible link, or possibly the alternator B+. As pinhead says, just start disconnecting.

[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

it seems the first thing I need to do is to get a fresh working battery, no?

I thought that you said that when you hook another battery (in a different vehicle) to the +/- cables in your FJ, it sparks and melts.

If that's the case, the problem is in your wiring, not your battery.

That said, before you toss your optima you should google charging an Optima. You will need to use another battery and a high output charger.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Sorry, I misread your post. You only eliminated your battery as the cause. Don't try to start it.
You have a big short somewhere in the + side. If you are melting jumper cables then I would be looking at big wires. Starter, between battery and fusible link, or possibly the alternator B+. As pinhead says, just start disconnecting.

having a hard time doing this correct & not sure what more to remove/do - not sure what a "fusible link" is? But, I checked the wire between starter and battery, it is perfect and touches nothing. I have several power wires for various extras that connect to the + pole clamp, I removed all of those. I pulled the wire that runs from main post on the alternator (B+ I believe you call it) - FWIW tracing that power wire it goes from the alternator into the firewall (I did not go farther) and you guys make it sound like it should go direct to the battery? anyway, still with that when I use jumpers and hook the car battery to the FJ + cable and touch the - cable (with battery pulled out) I still get sparks??

(see image of the alternator setup)

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

I thought that you said that when you hook another battery (in a different vehicle) to the +/- cables in your FJ, it sparks and melts.

as per above.. that is the issue.

The reason I say get a new battery is it is under warranty and Costco will allow me to swap it. so, in 1 month my warranty is up, so why not swap it as clearly I do not have a second battery nor charging unit to try to bring this one back to life?

what the heck and how all of the sudden is this possible. ugh! only new thing in months is the starter/solenoid - now this.

[NikP]

Remove the positive terminal from your starter, make the the cable doesn't touch anything while you then hook up a battery as you normally do. If no sparks or melting then you've isolated it to your starter, otherwise if you get the same results it's in the circuitry of the key.

[edwjmcgrath]

Hey, if the battery is free, go for it. You still have to find your short though.

Fusible link is like a fuse. The ammeter connects to the battery through it. The other side of the ammeter goes to the B+ of the alternator and the fuse box. Basically, that whole section of wires is high current and only protected by the fusible link.

I would next try disconnecting the battery cable at the starter and see if the shorting goes away. If it does then you've found your culprit. If not, the next step is to find and disconnect the fusible link.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by NikP

Remove the positive terminal from your starter, make the the cable doesn't touch anything while you then hook up a battery as you normally do. If no sparks or melting then you've isolated it to your starter, otherwise if you get the same results it's in the circuitry of the key.

if you remove the starter from this, disconnect it, then the issue MUST stop no since the + cable then goes to.... nothing... so what would that prove? that would not prove it is the starter, no?

"circuitry of the key." - that is a first mention of that

[wanabecruisen]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

what the heck and how all of the sudden is this possible. ugh! only new thing in months is the starter/solenoid - now this.

That's just the way it is with electrical shorts. Just take it one step at a time. As others have said, your first move should be to disconnect that large wire running from your battery to your starter and isolate (tape up) the end so that it does not touch any metal. Reconnect your battery and see if it still sparks. If no spark your problem is with the starter/solenoid. If you still have sparks post up and we'll help with the next step. Again, no winch right?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Hey, if the battery is free, go for it. You still have to find your short though.

exactly.. I agree on both points.

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Fusible link is like a fuse. The ammeter connects to the battery through it. The other side of the ammeter goes to the B+ of the alternator and the fuse box. Basically, that whole section of wires is high current and only protected by the fusible link.

I think I follow that - where is it located? near the fuse box?

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

I would next try disconnecting the battery cable at the starter and see if the shorting goes away. If it does then you've found your culprit. If not, the next step is to find and disconnect the fusible link.

but like I said above, since at it's most basic setup, the + cable off the battery goes to the starter only, and you disconnect it at the starter so just a - cable hanging there, of course no more issue as the + cable now goes nowhere and connects to nothing?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by wanabecruisen

That's just the way it is with electrical shorts. Just take it one step at a time. As others have said, your first move should be to disconnect that large wire running from your battery to your starter and isolate (tape up) the end so that it does not touch any metal. Reconnect your battery and see if it still sparks. If no spark your problem is with the starter/solenoid. If you still have sparks post up and we'll help with the next step. Again, no winch right?

thanks guys, I do appreciate all the help.

no winch, sorry I forgot to answer that one.

understand... that battery is so dead, it does nothing. it does not cause sparks. the sparks/melting come when I hook up the car as it has a juiced up battery. putting in the dead Optima at 4.5 volts does nothing.

SO, despite me not following 100% what it will prove as per above logic, I disconnected the power + cable from battery to starter and then connected my car battery by the jumper cables to the + and - wires and not more spark or melt.. but of course, since the + cable now goes no where... I must be missing something??

[Pin_Head]

There are two wires that attach to the cable at the + post of the battery: the large cable that goes to the starter and the fusible link, which supplies power to everything else. You want to decide whether the starter is shorted or everything else. The EZ way is to disconnect the fusible link. It should have a plug connector that connects to a large white wire that goes to the amp meter. The fusible link is a wire that is about 4 inches long that connects to the battery cable at the + post. Alternatively, you could disconnect the cable at the starter and leave the fusible link connected.

If you have an early '74, the large white wire might not have a fusible link. Instead the large white wire connects to the battery cable at the starter. If so, disconnect the white wire at the starter. I'm not sure when the wiring changed.

[edwjmcgrath]

Wantatic, when you disconnect the cable to the starter, there should still be another cable that ran from the + battery terminal. If you've already disconnected that somewhere in the process, then of course there is no point in disconnecting the wire to the starter. You've eliminated every circuit other than the starter (including the ignition switch). Make sure that there is only one wire (the big one) connected to that + terminal on the starter as I suppose that it's possible that the other circuits would connect to the battery there rather than at the battery terminal.

It sounds like a short in the starter. I must say that in all my years I've never seen a starter fail that way...

[wantatlc]

okay.. here is the data you should know.

1. My batteries main heavy gauge + wire goes down to the starter. that is all.

2. "The fusible link is a wire that is about 4 inches long that connects to the battery cable at the + post" - I see no such 4" wire connecting to the + battery cable at the + post.

3. my + battery cable clamp DOES have about 6 items hooked to it (3 have inline fuses: air horn, aux fan, baja lights, etc). I have 3 I cannot immediately identify that go into the firewall. 2 are red and 1 is light blue. 1 of the red is much thicker gauge than the others. I will assume the colors mean nothing as the PO has hacked colors together. So, are 1 of those 3 unknowns this "fusible link" ?

[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

okay.. here is the data you should know.

1. My batteries main heavy gauge + wire goes down to the starter. that is all.

2."The fusible link is a wire that is about 4 inches long that connects to the battery cable at the + post" - I see no such 4" wire.

3. my + battery cable clamp DOES have about 6 items hooked to it. I guess I need to figure out where all 6 goes (air horn, aux fan, etc) as 1 must go to this "fusible link" ?

If you've connected the battery from this +battery cable clamp with these 6 items connected, AND you've disconnected the other end from the starter and there is no sparking then you have eliminated those 6 items. It would have to be the starter solenoid (or what Toyota calls a "magnetic switch").

The next thing I would do is get down to the starter with your multimeter and check for continuity between the starter post that you just disconnected the cable from, and ground (the body of the starter). If there is continuity then you have the problem. The starter solenoid is pretty simple beast. If you remove it, you may find the problem right away.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Wantatic, when you disconnect the cable to the starter, there should still be another cable that ran from the + battery terminal. If you've already disconnected that somewhere in the process, then of course there is no point in disconnecting the wire to the starter. You've eliminated every circuit other than the starter (including the ignition switch). Make sure that there is only one wire (the big one) connected to that + terminal on the starter as I suppose that it's possible that the other circuits would connect to the battery there rather than at the battery terminal.

It sounds like a short in the starter. I must say that in all my years I've never seen a starter fail that way...

not trying to try your patience.. appreciate the effort.

yes, only 1 wire attached to big bolt on starter where the + battery wire connects.

so, as you see, I have these 3 unknown wires - not labeled as the other 3 are labeled - so all 6 run from the + battery clamp. just those unknown 3 go to places I am not sure as they were no mine but the PO.

So, I hook all 6 of these up to the + clamp, remove the + wire from the starter, attach my cars jumper cables to the + and - Fj wires and no spark/melt... leave all 6 hooked up AND attach back the + wire to the starter and I get melt/spark.. take all 6 off and still leave + hooked to starter and still spark/melt

[edwjmcgrath]

Hey, maybe there's a short in the starter solenoid? ;-)

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

If you've connected the battery from this +battery cable clamp with these 6 items connected, AND you've disconnected the other end from the starter and there is no sparking then you have eliminated those 6 items. It would have to be the starter solenoid (or what Toyota calls a "magnetic switch").

The next thing I would do is get down to the starter with your multimeter and check for continuity between the starter post that you just disconnected the cable from, and ground (the body of the starter). If there is continuity then you have the problem. The starter solenoid is pretty simple beast. If you remove it, you may find the problem right away.

what settings do my multimeter need to be on? DCV 20? and, is "continuity" seen when you have 0 or numbers showing on the meter? I assume I just put red tip to power tip of starter and black tip to any metal body of the starter.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Hey, maybe there's a short in the starter solenoid? ;-)

normally, I can follow the sarcasm tip no problem.. but are you saying we have come to conclusion that the newer starter is the actual culprit?

[edwjmcgrath]

You want the meter to be on Ohms or the greek symbol omega or Resistance.
Set it to the 1k range and with the cables just hanging there it should read "infinite" resistance.
My meter shows a "1" to mean infinite. When you connect the red to the starter and the black to the body, it should still read "infinite". If it reads 0 or anything much less than infinite, you've got a short in the starter switch.

[wantatlc]

I set to Ohms (omega) and to 200 - that is as low as mine goes in that setting - and just hanging it says 1. when I test, it drops to .05.. so it looks like a confirmed short in the starter?

[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

normally, I can follow the sarcasm tip no problem.. but are you saying we have come to conclusion that the newer starter is the actual culprit?

I'm saying that it looks that way. You've got the meter-what's it saying?

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

I'm saying that it looks that way. You've got the meter-what's it saying?

see it above.. it looks like it is a short, no?

if so, why wouldn't that fast and easy multimeter test be the very first thing I did versus all the doing and undoing of cables?

[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

I set to Ohms (omega) and to 200 - that is as low as mine goes in that setting - and just hanging it says 1. when I test, it drops to .05.. so it looks like a confirmed short in the starter?

Bingo. Just to eliminate anything else completely unusual, I would disconnect any other wires going to the starter (from the ignition key, to the coil) and repeat the test. Did you save the receipt?

[edwjmcgrath]

Originally Posted by wantatlc

see it above.. it looks like it is a short, no?

if so, why wouldn't that fast and easy multimeter test be the very first thing I did versus all the doing and undoing of cables?

Good question. I recall saying 4 hours ago that it sounded like a short in your starter.

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Bingo. Just to eliminate anything else completely unusual, I would disconnect any other wires going to the starter (from the ignition key, to the coil) and repeat the test. Did you save the receipt?

BTW, we are talking about the solenoid portion of the starter when we are talking "starter", correct? That is what I was testing... power bolt on solenoid and touching body of solenoid.. correct?

oh yeah... Pep Boys, so they will deal with it.

removed the only 1 other wire to the starter and did same test and same results.. drops to 0.05

[wantatlc]

Originally Posted by edwjmcgrath

Good question. I recall saying 4 hours ago that it sounded like a short in your starter.

well, I was kind of hinting at that yesterday and some leaned towards it and some not... but it looks like with your prodding, we might have gotten to it.

so, this confirms a bad starter.

and we know I got a tweaked battery. sooo low.

so, will replace battery if Costco honors the warranty and take the starter back to Pep Boys

BUT, does this solidify the reason why the rig would not turn over originally? The battery was dead and could not even turn the starter and we believe that was due to a bad short in the starter draining the battery... or is there more to this story still?

[edwjmcgrath]

There were several things that it could have been until you eliminated them. Battery, cable insulation, one of the other wires connected to the battery...

It sounds to me like the story is that your starter developed a short that wiped out your battery. When you tried to jump it, the short showed up as the sparking/melting jumper cables.

What I am unclear on is why the starter developed this short. We'll probably never know unless you take apart the solenoid before you take it back. Also, how did the original starter fail and could this be related?

If Costco does not replace your battery, you should consider getting a charger and try to revive the battery. It's a good thing to have anyway.

Finally, I'm not a mechanic (just an electrical engineer that has owned a lot of old cars) so I could be missing something here. My advice is worth what you paid for it.

Luck.