[bsmith123]

Well not enough progress to warrant pics just yet but Ugly Betty (the Florida version) is officially a frame up restore now. The body is up on sawhorses and 4x4s--Thanks to the posts and ideas I got for accomplishing that without any helpers.

I had done a lot of reading on mud about POR15 and RUST BULLET and well there's a lot of differing opinions so I thought I'd just post my impressions having used both now.

I used POR on my diffs front and rear and in the tub interior. I did some reading and decided to try some rust bullet for the frame.

POR-15

POR-15 was extremely satisfying to apply after the intensive prep. In the tub I rolled it followed by a foam brush using the roll and tip method. In tight areas I just used the foam brush. It flows out nicely and by the time it sets it looks like it was sprayed! On the Diffs it filled the rough cast metal and almost looked like plasti-coat.

It doesn't clump up around bolts or seams and spoil the crisp edges but it fills small imperfections nicely. Because of the peeling effect I would cut out with a razor and area needing touch up to keep from going farther than planned--It may cure harder over time. (I peeled some off after spilling stripper on it)

I made sure everything was spotless to the point of wearing gloves when touching metal. The product literature stresses prep, but who knows if it is really that fussy? The finish makes you step back and say wow! I'm a sucker for a nice finish even on things I won't ever see!

It seemed a shame to cover it with Chassis Coat but it is not UV stable and to use other top coats you must use their TIE COAT primer although I suspect there are suitable subs that are the same thing. The chassis coat is a nice subtle satin.

POR-15 does not store well once you open the can. I put plastic over the can then installed the lid but later with the top all gooked up I used a rubber glove and the fumes ate a hole in them! Buy small cans just in case to limit waste. It thinned okay with acetone or mek for cleanup and acetone will clean it up if you act quick. You will wear POR 15 for a week looking like dirty super glue on your skin if you let if dry.

Comes in silver or black

RUST BULLET

Went through the same prep pretty much and I am meticulous in prep but I was a little paranoid about the POR because they stress the prep soooo much. Probably would not have been a prob but I tried the RUST BULLET anyway. RUST BULLET stresses less prep and compatibility with other paints which is confidence inspiring. It only comes in silver unlike POR but you will still top coat either one though it is not strictly necessary with rust bullet. They also sell a top coat in black.

Both products say they will paint over rust (POR) just fine but I couldn't bring myself to do it--could you? Not after taking the body off the frame! So I prepped as I would for POR.

Rust Bullet is thick and they recommend not thinning it. I stirred it very well. In appearance while still in the can it reminded me of hammered metal by rustoleum with black and metal flake elements.

You could apply it with a foam brush but I think it wouldn't spread evenly or feel like it was "worked in" so I decided to go with a good quality badger brush. RUST BULLET feels almost sticky going on and it certainly feels like it will stay put, even before drying. No drips that's for sure. It doesn't flow out like POR and leaves brush marks about like any other paint but you can feather them out (mostly) but it will never look sprayed without some further work.

Being silver on application the next day from a few feet away it looks like primer gray. With its thick application you can fill up seams and hide details if you go too thickly and when your done it looks good but not nearly as good as the POR. Not sure that matters with a top coat though.


My impression is that this is a very tough coating so I'm glad I'm using it on the frame.


So POR-15 gets top marks for application and appearance and RUST BULLET gets tops marks for seeming a tough coating that will not peel in the tougher areas. I think it will work out if I use the POR for medium to light duty areas and RUST BULLET for the places where it will really take a beating but don't need to be as pretty.

I have had reports of both performing well over time and people seem satisfied with either so these are just my impressions

[hedgehog23]

well done review. maybe in a year come back and update how each product is holding up.

[bsmith123]

Sure will and hopefully further along--I did receive a few long term use replies when I asked but not many so most of us are working on initial impressions when really we want long term results.

I can't stand the idea of the FJ crumbling away on me so I'll be keeping an eye on it

[rsbcruiser]

Spilled brake fluid on fresh enamal over roughed POR15. The enamal peeled away where cantacted by the brake fluid. The POR15 was completely unaffected. So, don't know about the RB or how POR stands up to battery acid (yet) but 2 thumbs up for applications where coming into contact with brake fluid is possible.

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by bsmith123

.........I had done a lot of reading on mud about POR15 and RUST BULLET and well there's a lot of differing opinions so I thought I'd just post my impressions having used both now.......

And thanks for doing it. I've always wondered about "Rust Bullet". I don't even know if it is available in NZ but I'd like to try it if I find some.

....Because of the peeling effect I would cut out with a razor and area needing touch up to keep from going farther than planned--It may cure harder over time. (I peeled some off after spilling stripper on it)...

I've found POR15 isn't "hard" in the sense that it cuts/scrapes easily but I've never noticed any tendency to "peel off". (And I've assumed it gains hardness with time.)

......it is not UV stable and to use other top coats you must use their TIE COAT primer although I suspect there are suitable subs that are the same thing........

I tried that "POR15 Tiecoat". Perhaps it was "old stock" or "poor application technique" but I didn't like it at all. I couldn't brush it on smoothly. And there was no way I could get a good final finish after using it.

(By the way, I also hate the way the manufacturer gives no "use by date" on their cans in spite of the paint having a "significantly-limited shelf-life" and being so expensive to buy!)

So I just spray standard top-coat (rattle can or spray gun) straight on top of my POR15 primer. I do this within 1 to 3 hours of applying the POR15 (with the theory that the primer won't have cured sufficiently to prevent "bonding with the topcoat"). I've been doing it for a while now and noticed very little tendency for the topcoat to be able peel/chip off the primer.But then I know this is a "mickey mouse" approach. I don't aim for a "professional finish". (I don't mind the odd "paint run" etc.)

.....POR-15 does not store well once you open the can.....I put plastic over the can then installed the lid .......................

I use cling-wrap under the lid too. I also dispense the amount I need into another container so the POR15 tin is left open only briefly. And I store it in the fridge. With these steps I can generally use the whole can before any of the contents "go off". (And I buy only small tins like you do. (500ml).

....It thinned okay with acetone or mek for cleanup and acetone will clean it up if you act quick............

I'm not familiar with those products. But then I've never needed to thin the paint (although I bought some POR15 thinner should the need arise). But I clean up things with standard paint thinner (like PPG 2-way thinner which is much cheaper than POR15 thinner). However I prefer to discard my brushes than clean them because even a tiny film of POR15 left on the hairs will render them useless. I only use cheap brushes but the quality of the paint means I still get a good finish. (Just have to pick quite a few brush hairs out of the paint! )

......Comes in silver or black.......

And grey (mispelt "gray" on the can. Or is that american spelling?).

.....Rust Bullet is thick and they recommend not thinning it.....

Well that is a negative feature for me because I like the way the thin POR15 seeps into crevices by capillary action and then expands as it sets. I like to think of this happening in spot-welded lap joints in body panels or around rivets in a chassis! But I'd still like to try the RB.

Thanks for the post.


PS. I guess I could look in the "paint section" (I think there is one) but I never go there.

[bsmith123]

Yes I should've had other containers ready but full of excitement and paint ready after 3 weekends of prep work I couldn't stop myself!

I know that some products do cure and become tougher over time and well it was paint stripper so no surprise but I didnt' like how it peeled away from the metal when I pulled up an edge--like a sticker coming off. This is not the normal wear for paint though.

Sometimes I do think that all the fuss over primers/thinners etc is just keeping you using their brand--I use OSPHO acid now instead of metal prep.

Yes Grey/Gray is Queens English vs Americaneese I spent so long in the UK I spell it grey and go back and change now that I am back in the US

[lostmarbles]

Just remembered that you can get "POR15 primer" in another colour here in NZ too. - That is "Clear" (colourless).

So that makes 4 colours - Black, silver, gray and clear. (Pretty sure I haven't seen any others. And I don't think I'd ever use "clear" because you'd never spot patches you'd missed with your coverage!)

[DSRTRDR]

my husband used POR15 on his truck and we used rust bullet on mine

husband now likes rust bullet much better

(his POR has flaked by now ~4 yrs; none such thing on my truck ~3yrs)

it has to be dry for rust bullet to work as advertised

[bsmith123]

excellent point-it's amazing where water will sit when it all seems dry it pays to blow it all out with air I have a gun with a pointy angled end that's great for seams. I've heard of using hair dryers but I never wash and paint on the same day

Nice FJ by the way!

[tmarx]

Originally Posted by bsmith123

...I had done a lot of reading on mud about POR15 and RUST BULLET and well there's a lot of differing opinions so I thought I'd just post my impressions having used both now.

...

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this. You just helped me a whole bunch.

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by DSRTRDR

.........(his POR has flaked by now ~4 yrs; none such thing on my truck ~3yrs).........

Arrrgggghhhh. Mine better not do that!

Hi DSRTRDR

Are you sure it is the POR15 primer that is flaking and not just the top coat that was painted over it? (If so, was the surface properly prepared first?)

POR15 primer dries to such a glossy finish that a top-coat painted on later would certainly tend to peel/flake off unless "tiecoat"/sanding/other precautions were taken.



PS. My method of top-coat application (where I spray it on before the POR15 is "cured") is just "a trial" and I admit I could suffer these same consequences - but with the TOPCOAT only. I wouldn't expect the POR15 primer to ever flake/peel off!

[Blue60]

I applied two coats of sprayed POR15 on brake drums (external) during renovation approx two years ago. Currently replacing leaking cylinder. After beating on the drum with a 5 lb baby sledge and a block of wood to remove the drum, there was no evidence of chipping or damage to POR15 coating. They were prepped simply by sandblasting prior to application. Same with my hood hooks - POR15 after blasting, then two coats of Pewter. Pewter has come off hooks where they "hook" to the apron catches, but the underlying POR15 has not. Verdict - I like the stuff.

[joeyg1973]

I live about 10 minutes away from the POR-15 headquarters so it is pretty easy for me to get this paint right away when I need it.

I want to point out that prep for any paint system for metal is the MOST important step. It is the main factor that will significantly affect the life and quality of finish.

I have used the POR-15 engine paint kit as well as painted my axles end to end. The first thing that I painted was my engine block and head. I had the machine shop clean these before I painted them. Here is the order I did this:

1. I used several implements of destruction attached to my angle grinder and drill to get off as much rust as I could and completely removed all old paint or other chemicals stuck to it. A butane blow torch to burn the old paint and chemicals a little and BrakeKleen(ether highs rule!!) work pretty good before applying the grinder and drill. I used 3M black paint and rust remover wheels for this (they look like black spounges), 3M flapper wheels, and lot of different sized and shaped wire wheels. for smaller parts I just let them soak in white vinegar for a few days or put them in an electrolysis tank I made. I prefer the white vinegar nowadays. Both methods will take off paint, vinegar will eat the rust, and electrolysis with convert the rust back to iron.
2. Blue painters tape off everything you don't want covered with POR-15 now. Keep at least 2 packs of safety razors around for cutting the tape as they go dull quickly on metal. An Exacto Knife with a bunch of blades is also very useful. Make sure all the tape is tight on the metal.
3. Put a pair of those thick yellow rubber dish washing gloves on.
4. Cover in POR-15 Marine Clean. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Approx 3-4 songs on the radio. Make sure everything stays wet and covered don't worry about how much you use, make sure it is mixed 1-1 and that the solutions HOT. You can safely put the mix/spray bottle in the microwave if it has cooled or if you are using leftover.
5. Spray it down with your garden hose making sure that you get all oily and soapy spots off.
6. Dry it off with compressed air.
7. POR-15 Metal Ready for about 15 minutes. Approximately 3-4 songs on the radio. I don't know what this stuff is and it is expensive, but I wanted this stuff to last a long time so I believe an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Make sure that the metal stays wet and covered for the whole time. Don't use this stuff sparingly. I actually suggest you just go ahead and buy a gallon supply of this stuff because running out of it midway though the process means that you need to start all over.
8. Hose it down again.
9. Dry it off with compressed air. It should get either a white hazy/powdery look or a slight patina of rust. If the metal is smooth, you didn't get all the oil off of it or you touched it with a bare hand and you need to repeat everything from 4 on again.
10. ----End Of Prep----
11. Now you can paint on the POR-15. I used several cheap brushes for this and would throw them out pretty much as soon as they started to shed. I didn't think about it at the time, but I believe that the way to go now is to use several of those cheap foam brushed to avoid the hairs shedding like you do with regular brushes. For the engine it was the silver paint. It has metal flakes in it so it fills pores better. However, on flat smooth surfaces the metal flakes and silver color in the paint don't lay out right. I found that the best way deal with this issue is to put on the required 2 coats and then go back and jab or stipple( I think that is the right term) the paint on the smooth surfaces. This makes the flakes and the color on these spots lay out right and eliminates the streaks.
12. Let this dry per the instructions. Basically when you can make a finger print in the paint, but not drag your fingerprint it is ready to top coat.
13. 2 coats of POR-15 Engine Enamel Ford Blue, no thinning.
14. Let dry for a few hours under a plastic tarp tent to avoid any dust getting on it.
15. Remove the Blue painters tape. Inspect the paint lines and use a razor blade and the thinner on a clean none lint cloth to clean up any mistakes on the top coat of the paint.
16. Ok now here is where I found the best way to REALLY harden up this paint. Bake it. Don't have an oven to use? go out to home depot and buy a cheap radiant heat lamp. Hang it about 1-2 feet away from the part. Turn it on Hi and just walk away. Leave it there over night. The next day when you come back, the part will be pretty hot so let it cool for about 20 minutes. The paint will be ROCK hard. Can't scratch it at all and it looks like it was powder coated.

For axles, I first did the rear axle. Same care and detail in the prep work except when I put on the black POR-15 and the chassis coat black I used my spray gun. I had to thin each out just a tad for the gun. I wouldn't recommend spraying it on, nor would I recommend using the chassis top coat. It doesn't really go on that well and it is pretty soft. I haven't heat lamped this yet so that might actually harden things up a lot. I mentioned that I thought the chassis black top coat was soft and was crap to the POR-15 folks when I went back and they told me that unless the POR-15 was going to be exposed to direct and prolonged sunlight, it did not need to be coated to protect from UV. They also gave me 2 quart cans of POR-15 black because of the poor experience I had with the chassis black topcoat. When I did the front axle, I just brushed on 2 coats of POR-15, heat lamped it, and so far so good.


I will take some pictures of what the head looks like all painted up and post them here.

[Pinion]

If you are looking at POR15, look at Magnet Paints Antique Chassis Black. I beat the hell out of a sample they sent me and now my frame is sealed with it. Soaked it in a 50/50 saltwater solution in the sun for about a week I think, then cut into the center of it with a razor blade and tossed it back in for another week or so. No issues, no intrusion under the cut, no problems.

[John Smith]

The POR15 people are not lying when they tell you that you MUST follow all the prep steps. If you don't, the product will not work as advertised. Period. Don't buy POR15 unless you are willing to follow all the prep steps. The prep work sucks and it is a PITA to work with but I have had great results with POR15. I have even done a test leaving a patch of POR uncovered for a few years in sunlight and it does turn to a flat chalky black but is still super hard.

If you put POR15 onto existing paint it will peel right off once dried. It must be on bare metal, that has been prepped per their instructions. Lastly, when working with POR15 it is imperative you do not get any water mixed with your POR15. One drop of sweat into your POR15 and you need to throw it out.

[krzyabncanuck]

I used rust bullet on my 45 frame about 2 years ago and so far so good.

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by John Smith

......If you put POR15 onto existing paint it will peel right off once dried. .........

Well my work will be a test of this. I get a lot of my surfaces down to "bare metal" but I also tend to leave a lot of old paint (most primer) behind. (Too much effort required to remove it all and I t-h-i-n-k I can get away it?)

However, before applying the POR15 primer, that old paint has been scratched/sanded heaps and treated with "Marine Clean" and "Metal Ready". So far I've had no issues with any POR15 primer peeling off the paint I've left behind.

Time will tell.

Whatever the case - I think my wagon will be better rust-protected (when I'm finished) than when it left the factory.

[DSRTRDR]

Originally Posted by lostmarbles

Arrrgggghhhh. Mine better not do that!

Hi DSRTRDR

Are you sure it is the POR15 primer that is flaking and not just the top coat that was painted over it? (If so, was the surface properly prepared first?)

Michael used it on springs and sliders - the black is flaking

even if there is some primer left - what a pain to redo the coat

[bsmith123]

I think all the points on prep are correct and boy was my axle prepped! And I used all the POR materials and even wore gloves to touch the metal.

The thing was that I spilled polyurethane stripper on it and that caused the problem. I wiped it off and there were bits sticking up that I pulled and it peeled a little off.


Im still confident in the por 15 though I feel it is slightly less tough than the rust bullet--just my impression, but I wont be pouring stripper on it to test the theory--sorry!


Here's some pics of the POR it does look nice going on! I'll post some of the rust bullet on the frame when I get some more progress

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I live about 10 minutes away ,,,,,,I will take some pictures of what the head looks like all painted up and post them here.

I'm looking forward to your pictures Joeyg1973.

And thanks tremendously for your post.

It is thanks to MUD and posts like yours that my self-confidence is returning. If I were to rejoin MUD today - I probably wouldn't even choose the name "lostmarbles". Hmmmm. I wonder what I would choose though........................

In my job I have literally hundreds of workmates. Yet with NOT A SINGLE SOLITARY ONE of them can I discuss my cruiser obsession! (Their eyes glaze over with disinterest if I even try.)

(Wife & kids? Nah. Don't be silly. Course they're not in the least bit interested either!)

But on MUD, not only do I find lots of like-minded people, but I find people such as yourself who "put me to shame" in their "attention to detail", obedience to manufacturer's instructions" and "aim for perfection".

Well done and THANKS. (I feel almost "normal" now.)

[BJ42Brumby]

Hello. What a great read. Thankyou to all those who put so much effort into describing their experiences. I've just spent the day degreasing and cleaning my BJ chassis in readiness for sandblasting. And then I've got my litre can of POR15 and Blackcote. I'm very nervous about using it and doing the prep right. I hope I get it right. No doubt I'll be sweating from stress. Better go and get myself some John McEnroe sweat bands ha ha ha...
I'll let you all know how I get on..

[nspctr1]

You will probably get a million different opinions on each product but I chose POR 15 for my setup and it worked great.. One thing to mention, WEAR gloves..... have plenty of ventillation. I painted my fuel tank and when I was preparing to install it I dropped it on the concrete driveway and it didn't dent the tank and better yet it didn't even phase the POR......

[bsmith123]

Mcenroe sweat bands for sure and Gene Simmons shorts--that's be great for a por job ha ha!

Lostmarbles ---We're not the crazy ones

[PabloCruise]

So if I am looking at painting over surface rust on a frame and axles (that still have some factory paint) then it sounds like the Rust Bullet is better?

Is there a third major product besides RB and POR?

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by PabloCruise

So if I am looking at painting over surface rust on a frame and axles (that still have some factory paint) then it sounds like the Rust Bullet is better?....

Well for me "the jury is still out" on that one Pablocruise. There does seem to be significant opinion expressed here that RB is better for this application. But I've done the front axle and two thirds of my chassis (so far) with POR15. And I've painted it over surface rust (which incidentally is the BEST base for POR15 and FAR better than "clean bare metal") and over a lot of factory paint (There was much more "factory paint" left on my chassis than there was "bare metal". But I tend to clean up body panels much closer to "bare-metal-status".) I have had no issues at all so far with the POR15 separating from the factory paint on that work. - But I hasten to add that the "factory paint" had been scratched and sanded and treated with "Marine Clean" and "Metal Ready" prior to brushing on the POR15 primer. (The paint got the "Metal Ready" treatment only because it was easier to brush it on "the lot" rather than try to get it just on the rust/bare-metal areas alone.)

Oh - But you probably shouldn't "apply much credibility" to my support of POR15 for the chassis - because this work hasn't yet "stood the test of time". However I wouldn't be continuing to use POR15 if I wasn't confident in it in this application.

(Sorry - Lot of words here. But I seem to need lots to state what I'm trying to say clearly.)

[bsmith123]

Hello,

For your viewing pleasure----follow this link to see TED NUGENTS Zebra Striped Bronco get ChAssis Saver Applied--haha
YouTube - Stacey David uses CHASSIS SAVER on Ted Nugent's Rusty Bronco

Man you think Nugent would drive a 40

Yup there are other products like Eastwoods Rust Encapsulator and many others.

In the old days I would have probably sanded, used naval jelly, primered and painted with enamel and I bet that would last a long time and I would have been happy with that.

I don't think you will have a prob with POR over old paint and yes it says it actually stick best to rust ---the metal ready produces flash rust for this purpose I imagine. I believe you can use other cleaners and metal preps like tri sodium phosphate and osphoric acid cheaper than the POR products with good results too.

My intention was to post impressions of using it not decide between the two products as I am using both

I think the prob stems with our obsession to get the absolute best bullet proof solution and know we got the best--in truth all of the products probably do a similar good job and its a matter of which you prefer.

My ideas is some products may be better than others in different areas of the vehicle---- like RB on the frame and they do stress less prep and compatibility with other paints so if I was choosing to go over old paint I would use that.

Some folks just oil spray and get good results from that--but I want pretty too!

I went back to the spot that peeled and tried to peel up some more from the edge and couldn't so maybe it was just the effect of the stripper I didn't go all the way round trying to destroy my hard work though! aint doing that

[Trollhole]

I've been using Rust Bullets for about 6 months now. I have only used the Black Shell product. From what I have been told it is just as good as the orginal stuff. Only prep I do is with a pressure washer. Then wait for it to dry and paint. Paint, wood, metal, plastic or anthing else doesn't matter. It will stick to it. Heck I painted grease that was on the frame and have no problems yet. I don't use a brush for the stuff. I spray it on. 1.6 gun I believe. Went on just fine. Solid as a rock. Comes out looking nice and glossy. In hindsight I'd brobably brush the corners and hidden spots and spray the rest. No issues with UV rays don't think they have those. No messing with prep. Ley it down and let it go.

[MarcoPolo]

Great Thread...
>>Will either of these 2 work well on the bottom of the fuel tank, after the rust bark is knocked off
and steel wooled?

[PabloCruise]

Originally Posted by PabloCruise

Is there a third major product besides RB and POR?

I think it is called Zero Rust - anyone use that?

[adamhagan]

I have been contemplating Zero Rust vs POR15 and I really appreciate everyones experiences!

I have some body panels I have decided to cover with zero rust b/c they have multiple colors (tan to place under my dune beige), but I think POR 15 is superior for the frame and tub.

I am not planning on doing a frame off restoration for a couple of years, so does anyone have any advice on how to prep. the frame and tub?

Thanks,

Adam