Big Gay 2F Build Tech

Degnol · 08-14-07, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Saw Downey has two types

13260 F and 2F Torquer Cam $220.00
13270 F and 2F Horsepower Cam $220.00

Downey now offers two Cam choices for the F and 2F Landcruiser engines. The Torque Cam provides better acceleration between 1800 and 4000 RPM. The Horsepower Cam is a better full-throttle performance Cam with 2200 to 5000 RPM effective range (Headers and Holley Carburetor recommended). NOTE #1 – Stock Landcruiser cam duration (over-lap) is ridiculously too long. We have shortened the duration to improve performance and radically reduce emissions.

and MAF

13511-60060BRV MAN-A-FRE BILLET RV GRING CAMSHAFT $310.00
13511-60060 MAN-A-FRE BILLET STOCK GRIND CAMSHAFT $225.00

By using a fresh cast billet we achieve several advantages. Unlike re-grinds which must make the base circle of the cam much smaller in order to achieve higher lift and durations, thus creating steep ramp and lobe angles and adding stress to the valve train. A billet retains the large base circle similar to the stock camshaft, enabling the use of higher valve lift and duration without drastically changing the stress level. Another advantage is in the area of the distributor drive gear. On the stock Toyota camshaft the distributor drive gear is pressed onto the camshaft. Over the years this drive gear can come loose, and out of line, or begin to wobble with obvious consequences to ignition timing integrity or damage to ignition distributors. On Man-A-Fre billet camshafts this is not possible as the distributor drive gear is a cast part of the actual camshaft, and can never come loose. Advances in metallurgy, and grinding techniques couple to give us a camshaft stronger than stock, but less expensive than an OEM. replacement unit. Man-A-Fre's RV grind camshaft is machined from a hardened cast billet, and ground to our own RV spec grind. These camshafts will deliver power increases across the entire rpm band from right off-idle all the way to redline. Overall duration of these camshafts is 262 degrees which produces the most favorable overall power increases without sacrificing bottom end torque. Camshafts with durations of 270 degrees or more will give stronger pulling power at higher rpm levels, but do so by sacrificing bottom end to midrange torque and throttle response. Our stock grind camshaft has all the advantages of our fresh cast billet, but in a stock grind configuration for those that prefer. All MAN-A-FRE billet camshafts are drilled for use with both F and 2F cylinder head oiling systems. We highly recommend the use of new lifters, and cam bearings when changing camshafts. Always use assembly lube when doing internal engine work.

So do I have to replace the lifters?

Yes, or have the old ones resurfaced. IIRC resurfacing the old ones was about $5@ x 12 = $60 and new Japanese from CCOT were $100. I went new.
New cam = New/resurfaced lifters http://coolfj40.stores.yahoo.net/lifter.html

HTH

Ed

Trollhole · 08-14-07, 01:43 PM

Thanks Ed, one less thing to worry about.

Anybody have any thoughts on ring and the cam?

Degnol · 08-14-07, 06:49 PM

Quote by Pappy....."Or OEM from CDan for $128."

Pappy, why did you delete that.........? Good info and when you are that deep into a motor, I'm not sure that is the time to save $50-60.

New cam = new lifters

Ed

pappy · 08-14-07, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Degnol

Quote by Pappy....."Or OEM from CDan for $128."

Pappy, why did you delete that.........? Good info and when you are that deep into a motor, I'm not sure that is the time to save $50-60.

New cam = new lifters

Ed

Because I F***d up. I only multiplied by 6. It should be twice that and it looks like I didn't get it gone in time

Degnol · 08-14-07, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappy

Because I F***d up. I only multiplied by 6. It should be twice that and it looks like I didn't get it gone in time

DAMN! you mean OEM lifters are $256!!!!!! Well, we'll/I'll see how the CCOT Jap-Pan lifets hold up. That makes resurfacing look like a deal.

Now barf up why you bought only 6 lifters.........

Ed

pappy · 08-14-07, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Degnol

DAMN! you mean OEM lifters are $256!!!!!! Well, we'll/I'll see how the CCOT Jap-Pan lifets hold up. That makes resurfacing look like a deal.

Now barf up why you bought only 6 lifters.........

Ed

I didn't buy any, I had mine resurfaced

. This was simply Internet homework.

$28.32 list x 12 = $339.84 - 25% for CDan discount = $254.88 ... yep, OUCH!

grant5127 · 08-14-07, 07:59 PM

MAF cams also recommend stronger valve springs and the lifters to be crowned...

Trollhole · 08-14-07, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grant5127

MAF cams also recommend stronger valve springs and the lifters to be crowned...

Yeah I saw that. I'm not really interested in changing springs. I heard Mark W sells a good cam. Anybody have an opinion? Or is the color really freaking you out?

grant5127 · 08-14-07, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollhole

On the stock Toyota camshaft the distributor drive gear is pressed onto the camshaft.

... howd they get that lil gear over dem lobes

matt.mcinnes · 08-14-07, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Yeah I saw that. I'm not really interested in changing springs. I heard Mark W sells a good cam. Anybody have an opinion? Or is the color really freaking you out?

Colour is

Can I have the paint code

DHONDAGOD · 08-14-07, 11:45 PM

Small block Chevy valve springs go right in place of the stock 2f springs. When I tested mine on a Rimac (valve spring checker) they were like 25lbs closed and 45-50 lbs open. STOCK small block chevy springs off an old head laying in my backyard with rust on them were like 45-55 closed and 70-ish open IIRC.....

It was cheap enough at the time I had my head off...

On balancing the lower end, If you have the time and $$$ I would do it... The 2f isnt known for being balanced stock... Measured in OUNCES so Im told.... (should be like 1/2 a gram) Wastes energy and stresses parts at that level...

Nice thread BTW

Chris

Trollhole · 08-15-07, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHONDAGOD

Small block Chevy valve springs go right in place of the stock 2f springs. When I tested mine on a Rimac (valve spring checker) they were like 25lbs closed and 45-50 lbs open. STOCK small block chevy springs off an old head laying in my backyard with rust on them were like 45-55 closed and 70-ish open IIRC.....

It was cheap enough at the time I had my head off...

On balancing the lower end, If you have the time and $$$ I would do it... The 2f isnt known for being balanced stock... Measured in OUNCES so Im told.... (should be like 1/2 a gram) Wastes energy and stresses parts at that level...

Nice thread BTW

Chris

Do you have to go with SBC valve springs when doing the RV cam? Or is it more of a better performance gain?

Trollhole · 08-15-07, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

Colour is

Can I have the paint code

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/metalcast.html

Using ground coat first then the metal cast on top.

Very gay.

Degnol · 08-15-07, 09:03 AM

Marshall, I would go with whatever MarkW recommends. I know MAF makes that statement about the "Rediculous overlap" but there is a reason for that. It has been discussed here before, but I can't recal exactly. I think it has to do with the torque peak and rpms.
I went with a stock grind cam on the basis that Toyota thought it best. I operate at no more than 3-3,500 rpm tops and cruise at no more than 3K so a cam with performance above that is of no use in my applicarion. I was amazed that at the BHCC I almost never revved above 1,500 rpm.
If you are looking at more highway speeds than wheeling, then your choice will probably be different than mine.

My .02? Stock grind cam and get the CCOT lifters, or resurface yours.

ed

kvanoort · 08-15-07, 11:49 AM

This is a great thread and very timely. I'm currently going through the same engine rebuild parts evaluation process for my '75 2F looking at the various options from different suppliers for cams, pistons, rings, etc. At this point, I'm still compiling prices from CCOT, SOR, OEM and MAF. I've read the posts on the MAF billet RV cam and forged pistons but haven't made a final decision yet on which way to go -- OEM vs. Performance. If I go the performance route, it seems like a slippery slope with porting and polishing the head along with additional parts required to realize the full potential of the non-OEM components -- header, new distributor, new carb, upgraded wires, better radiator, oil cooler, etc. Does it make sense to upgrade the pistons, rings and cam now since I'm replacing them anyway and upgrade the other bits and pieces as time and $$$ permit?

'74 UA FJ · 08-15-07, 11:50 AM

From what I've read, stock valve springs are good for over 5000 rpm.

Trollhole · 08-15-07, 12:31 PM

Quote from a PM from Mark W.

262 advertised duration.

Mark...

Thanks Mark. Do I need to buy SBC springs with this cam?

I normally run stock springs with this cam. You need to be careful about shimming them. they are running close to the limit and if you shim them much at all you may stack them. But I have found that even worn and "weak" stock springs do the job just fine within the rpm limits that you are working with for the 2F.

Mark...

Now I just need to figure out what shimming is. lol

Trollhole · 08-15-07, 12:39 PM

One more thing. Just got through talking to the well respected machine shop here in town about balancing the engine. He said I would just be wasting money if I did that. I told him what people had said here and it didn't phase him. Said that since it wasn't an auto the flywheel didn't need to be balanced and since I was just reringing and puting new bearing that it would be just fine at 5000k rpms since I was not changing the stock rotational mass that was balanced at the factory. Is this true? I could see wanting this for an early 2f or f but didn't they pay closer attention to the 2f's in FJ60s when it came to engine balancing?

Anyway if you want to read up on balancing this is a good place.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/eb10330.htm

Trollhole · 08-15-07, 01:22 PM

Alright now you have got me what is shimming the springs? My machine shop did the valves. They and the springs are already together. Is this wrong? Sorry for all the questions.

Springs tend to weaken with age. There is a specified pressure that they are supposed to hold against the seat when the valve is closed. To bring this back into spec with used springs it is common to put shims under the springs so that they pull the valve shut a little tighter than they would without them. These shims cause the spring to be compressed a little more. This means that there is less room for more compression (as the valve opens) before they run out of room and fuly compress (stack).

It is not wrong, but with a high lift cam the loss of compression room for the spring may become a problem.

Mark...

This is good stuff.

So should I just buy new SBC springs and be done with it? Any particular type.

Thanks again.

I'd stick with the stock springs. I've never had a problem with them, even with runs to 5000 and a bit higher.

Not counting shipping, Delta will regrind your cam for about $90 IIRC. If you have damaged lobes that have to be welded up it costs a little more for each lobe that they do. Turn around is only a couple of days.

A new MAF cam, not a regrind, that is an advantage over a regrind. I use regrind in almost all of my engines, but a new billet will have a slightly larger base circle and put slightly less stress on the lobes and lifter faces.

Don't forget that you need new or reground lifters too.

Mark...

matt.mcinnes · 08-15-07, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollhole

One more thing. Just got through talking to the well respected machine shop here in town about balancing the engine. He said I would just be wasting money if I did that. I told him what people had said here and it didn't phase him. Said that since it wasn't an auto the flywheel didn't need to be balanced and since I was just reringing and puting new bearing that it would be just fine at 5000k rpms since I was not changing the stock rotational mass that was balanced at the factory. Is this true? I could see wanting this for an early 2f or f but didn't they pay closer attention to the 2f's in FJ60s when it came to engine balancing?

Anyway if you want to read up on balancing this is a good place.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/eb10330.htm

Balance it, Toyota did not balance their engines at this time as well as they could have.

My 2c

DHONDAGOD · 08-15-07, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Do you have to go with SBC valve springs when doing the RV cam? Or is it more of a better performance gain?

I did the SBC springs because:

1. I had my head apart on the bench

2. I have a Rimac (spring tester) and found the stock springs to be silly weak

3. I have several stock SBC heads laying around to rob springs off and compare to the stock 2f springs.

4. SBC springs were the same size as the Toy springs and higher pressure without getting silly.

5. SBC springs (old, unknown mileage/age) were free and still an upgrade from the Toy spring

6. Motor runs "crisper" and revs-out quicker now...

Other than a milled head and light bowl work in the ports, header and non-factory carb, my motor is stock. Unknown mileage.

For the cost and benifits I reccomend doing it...

As for balancing, If you have the money, DO IT! ESPECIALLY if your going to wind the thing out!

Chris

Trollhole · 08-16-07, 07:00 AM

Well I'm looking at around doing 5000rpm max. Is that winding it out?

Is it possible to just get all the rods and pistons to be the same weight or does the crank come into this equation?

'74 UA FJ · 08-16-07, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Is it possible to just get all the rods and pistons to be the same weight or does the crank come into this equation?

You'll want to balance the whole rotating assembly...crank, rods pistons...

Trollhole · 08-16-07, 02:40 PM

Thought so.

Well it looks like I have nailed down a spare MAF billet RV cam from a MUD member. So I'm golden for the cam. Will be tearing into the bottom end this weekend. Will post pics of the progress.