[Blue77FJ40]

Thanks, Poser. I have the Orion and should have mentioned the question was in that context. Also, Georg had mentioned in another thread that should there be sufficient interest (>12), that there might be a remake of the famous Warden's nosecone, and I wondered how the strength matched up.

I'm also interested in installing a 2.28 toybox in front of the Orion. Alternately, I just found out that if I use a 19-spline later H42 along with a split case, then Marlin's 10-spline tranny shaft doesn't need to be installed, hence a much easier toybox route as there is a 19-spline toybox option.

I just may ditch the Orion and go the 4.7 toybox/splitcase option. Would anyone know how the strength of the Orion is to the splitcase? I realize the Orion is cast iron, but I wonder just how strong the splitcase is.

TIA, Dan

[Poser]

Originally Posted by Blue77FJ40

Thanks, Poser. I have the Orion and should have mentioned the question was in that context. Also, Georg had mentioned in another thread that should there be sufficient interest (>12), that there might be a remake of the famous Warden's nosecone, and I wondered how the strength matched up.

Again, it is not comparing interchangeable components, so it does not really matter, as you cannot purchase the AA Orion HD front output housing and install it onto a stock Land Cruiser one-piece transfer case.



You can see that the front housing on the Orion HD is significantly different in design compared to a stock component. But I would wager if you set your truck down on your front driveshaft and provided sufficient leverage to the nose cone that this design or even the ‘famous’ Warden nose cone could be levered off the front of the transfer case.



As far as strength of a split case vs an Orion?

The split case has larger front and rear output shafts, compared to your current Orion. However, if you went to the Orion HD, you would get larger front and rear output shafts, than those used in the split case.

[orangefj45]

once again, steve is right on the money!


fwiw, the HD can be modified to work with the stock speedo setup; fairly simple mod but it does require some mild machine work.

he true advantage of the HD lies in the 32 spline shafts.

[orangefj45]

if i was to run a standared trans in a 40 along with the lowest "sensible" gearing option for t-cases or doublers then i would opt for an h41 along with an orion.

that'll give you 20:1 low gear for the trans and t-case combo. that along with 411s in the diffs will net you a 82:1 first gear in low range. anything lower than that is not really needed unless you're doing hardcore stuff on 39s or larger tires.

that combo would also be very short, allowig for a long rear driveline. it would also have the least amount on splined connections and shifters. less parts, less chance for failure.

[orangefj45]

i've said this before d i'll say it again. there is such a thing as "too low". i call it "stupid low".
in minitruck or something with a high reving engine, you might want to consider going with lower t-case gears or a doubler due to the fact that you might not have a lot of low end torque but you can rev the mill up to 6000 rpms. so if you're in low gear and need to pick up some speed, you can get on the gas and do so.
that is not the case in most cruisers. the inline 6s and even most V8s have plenty of low end but they won't rev up very high and take their time getting there. so if you're craling in low at 120:1 and need to pick up wheel speed quickly to avoind slipping off a ledge or other obstacle, you're pretty much out of luck unless you're a world champ at speed shifting and you have cat-like reflexes.
so i like to rely on a little torque to get me thru. here's a classic example. this video shows me driving greenfox's fj40 at katemcy just last month. the cruiser still has the original F engine ( never been out of the vehicle ) along with the stock 4spd trans, an orion with 4:1 gears and stock diffs. welded rear, arb front. fwiw, it still has stock axle shafts all the way around including the birfs. so the final drive ratio comes out to 56:1 which is not that low. the tires on the 40 are 36" iroks on cheapy steel rims. this truck is somewhat of a budget build and is still 90-something- percent oem toyota aside from the front locker, t-case and cage.
imho, it could use an h41 but nothing lower than that. it's very predictable driveable ad has no issues bogging down f you tap the throttle at he right time to bing the rpms up just for a sec. you be the judge:

YouTube - katemcy rocks red fj 40 in v notch part 3 of 4
there are 4 parts to the clip if you get really bored........

[Cruiserdrew]

So I don't know if we're talking orion or simply gear ratios, but....

I have always thought the SM420 plus stock transfer rocks in FJ40's. The approximately 75:1 is the sweet spot for the Rubicon. But last year I did Fordyce creek for the first time, and honestly, lower gears would have been nice.While 300:1 might be overkill, 120:1 would be OK. It is very nice to go slow with the motor in it's sweet spot around 1800 RPM. I found myself having to lug the motor down to 400 rpm and that was too fast.

I think that an FJ40 at 120:1 would be perfect, so an h41 with Orion would let you do whatever you want. An SM420 with Orion is very low, but OK.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I have always thought the SM420 plus stock transfer rocks in FJ40's.

Agree.


I ran that combo from 1993 to 2004 from 33-inch to 42-inch tires and beat the hell out of it without any issues really.


I now have a 4.3 Atlas II behind the 420 and get 148:1, which is more than enough low for my five-thousand-plus-pound truck, but I really miss the 'third-gear-low-range' that the 420 and stock case gearing combo provided....

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I have always thought the SM420 plus stock transfer rocks in FJ40's.

very true. i had a 465 wih a stock case in darth ( 1970 40 with a v8 and 37s ). sweet setup, great for street driving and rubicon.

fordyce does require some lower gears especially in a heavy rig. the winch hills are difficult and a couple of the bypasses are'nt a whole lot easier either. but thos are rare occasions where super-low gearing would come into play.....

[mr_manny]

installed my orion yesterday

only issue was the bottom left mounting bolt that attaches tcase to tranny.
clearance is real tight (due to gear), and I'm sure torque setting is not the same as the others.

I think the solution, would be to replace the hex with an allen head.

anyone know of a source for one? M12x1.25x35mm

thanks






#435 guess I have to update my sig...

[orangefj45]

manny, your kit should have included an allen head bolt that had the top edge ground down. aa sends them out with every orion. if you did'nt get one, call me tomorrow and i'll have one shipped to you.

[mr_manny]

I remember seeing the bolt, but don't believe it was M12-1.25
will check again.

thanks again G
really diggin the 4spd internals







engagement is so much better then previous 3spd setup

[mr_manny]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

manny, your kit should have included an allen head bolt that had the top edge ground down. aa sends them out with every orion

found an allen (wasn't ground down), but it is too course...won't work w/plate adapter to sm465.

ordered allen-bolt from McMaster-Carr

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

So I don't know if we're talking orion or simply gear ratios, but....

I have always thought the SM420 plus stock transfer rocks in FJ40's. The approximately 75:1 is the sweet spot for the Rubicon. But last year I did Fordyce creek for the first time, and honestly, lower gears would have been nice.While 300:1 might be overkill, 120:1 would be OK. It is very nice to go slow with the motor in it's sweet spot around 1800 RPM. I found myself having to lug the motor down to 400 rpm and that was too fast.

I think that an FJ40 at 120:1 would be perfect, so an h41 with Orion would let you do whatever you want. An SM420 with Orion is very low, but OK.

So will you have an Orion for this years trip?

[mr_manny]

McMaster came through...




much better

[petescoffee]

With the help of Neil for Family Adventure Outfitters my Orion HD 003 is back up and running. Haven't taken it on the trail yet, but have put some load on it to try and get it to pop out of gear and it hasn't.
AA went through the case and all they found was the shift rail a little askew so they replaced it. They said everything else was within tolerance. Hopefully, that was the cause of it popping out of gearsin low and 4 wheel.
At their suggestion I readjusted the linkage and releaved the tranny hump to have more clearance around the twin stick shifters. Apparently 2 common causes for popping out of gear are not full engagement and hitting the tranny hump with torque and flexing and in general movement. I also made sure my motor mounts were in good condition.
I'll get it out on the trail soon and give it the full test.

One thing I did notice is that the case hits my skid plate now. Probably the extra weight of the case hanging out the back end. Anyone figured out a way to add additional support?

Dave

[cpg]

Originally Posted by petescoffee

One thing I did notice is that the case hits my skid plate now. Probably the extra weight of the case hanging out the back end. Anyone figured out a way to add additional support?

Dave

The Orion hangs about a 1/2" lower than stock.

[orangefj45]

just finished building another orion 4:1 for a customer and fellow mudder. will be shipped out tomorrow. also rebuilt #235 for a friend on the east coast. the range fork was worn so bad that the synchro slider was just about free to slide anywhere it wanted to. worst fork wear i've ever seen. 2 of the 5 t-cases i need to build in 5 days, two of the split cases are done as well. one to go.

['74 UA FJ]

orange, have you ever had any of the Orions that you've built pop out of gear?

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by '74 UA FJ

orange, have you ever had any of the Orions that you've built pop out of gear?

sadly, yes.

the one i built for manny popped out of low gear the first time he took it to rubicon . i did'nt install the case so i'm not sure if it was linkage related or not.

i also had an HD that popped out of gear. it's still in the cruiser but i'm working on a solution with randy at AA.

other than that, i've only had one other one pop out of low so overall my percentage is pretty good. but i'd like to have none of them pop out.

the first one i built about 4 years ago or more has never popped out of gear. it's in greenfox's fj40 "crusty crab" and we regularly beat the snot out of the rig. it's been to the trail a number of times and has at least 5k miles on it. no issues ever. i wish they were all like that.

georg

[peesalot]

Georg, a question regarding the shift fork , are the ones AA supplies dimensionally the same as the OEM ones other than the clearancing for gear ?
specifically I am interested in if the area where fork contacts slider is built up and if in your opinion that would help push and keep it in gear? Do you have any of the retro fit kits for the early orions without the back cut gear in stock ?

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by peesalot

Georg, a question regarding the shift fork , are the ones AA supplies dimensionally the same as the OEM ones other than the clearancing for gear ?
specifically I am interested in if the area where fork contacts slider is built up and if in your opinion that would help push and keep it in gear? Do you have any of the retro fit kits for the early orions without the back cut gear in stock ?

hey john.
good question. ii rc, the forks are idnetical dimensionally except for the extra clearance for the low speed gear on the aa fork. the tips on the aa fork are also hardened. i would have to do some measuring to check on the pad thickness to see if there's any difference. i do not think so.
there are many reasons why an orion could or would pop out of gear. one of them is the synchro sleeve. if you build a case with a worn oem sleeve, then your chances of it popping out of gear are definetly increased. the oem sliders have been discontinued by toyota and are completely sold out. the last one i bought was $71 my cost.
however, i have been able to find aftermarket sliders, produced by the same company who makes the aftermarket shafts and gears; seamaster. they've been an oem vendor for many companies for years and years......
their cliseds sell for roughly $45 and i have them in stock at all times now. i have gotten into the habbit of using new sliders when building the orions in order to help prevent any issues with them popping out of gear.
while i do stock a lot of the periferral parts for the orions, i do not have the gears in stock. i get them from AA as i need them; only takes a day or two for them to get here. so i'd suggest you call aa and see if they still have any in stock. mathew at ext 523 is very helpful and knows quite a bit about the orions.

hth

georg @ valley hybrids

ps: i am in no way speaking on AAs' behalf. my statements are merely for your info and conclusions drawn from personal experience. so please don't call the guys at AA and tell them "well ,georg said........."

[peesalot]

And I had the phone in my hand , JK..............

['74 UA FJ]

I'm still upset that my Orion pops out(easier now than when it was first built) when the issue was supposed to be fixed after the early cases. I put lots of time into the case making sure that everything was perfect with it. I haven't had time to tear it down in the last year and a half, but hopefully I will get to it when I do my spring over this year.

[peesalot]

what case #

If you have the back cut gear and used a new slider the only other issue could be a shift rail that is not lining the detents up with the position fork needs to be in just right. FWIW on my orion the shift rail was positioning the detents where they held the fork about 1.5mm off position.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by '74 UA FJ

Number 408 is going in soon--hopefully next weekend if I get finished rebuilding the transmission by then. I built the orion with a new mainshaft and hi/low shift collar. The stock thrust washers gave me the correct end play(.009). I'll edit this post when I get some miles and wheeling on it.

Edit 1: After the first ride, I am disappointed. It pops out of low range on steep downhills.

Originally Posted by peesalot

what case #

If you have the back cut gear and used a new slider the only other issue could be a shift rail that is not lining the detents up with the position fork needs to be in just right. FWIW on my orion the shift rail was positioning the detents where they held the fork about 1.5mm off position.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by '74 UA FJ

I'm still upset that my Orion pops out(easier now than when it was first built) when the issue was supposed to be fixed after the early cases. I put lots of time into the case making sure that everything was perfect with it. I haven't had time to tear it down in the last year and a half, but hopefully I will get to it when I do my spring over this year.

Disconnect the shift linkage to the transfer case and use an adjustable wrench or some other means to manipulate the range selector lever into low and operate your vehicle.


What style transfer case shifter are you currently running?

['74 UA FJ]

Originally Posted by Poser

Disconnect the shift linkage to the transfer case and use an adjustable wrench or some other means to manipulate the range selector lever into low and operate your vehicle.


What style transfer case shifter are you currently running?

I will try disconnecting the shift linkage although I'm 99.9% sure that is not the problem.



The newer style that came on the transfer case with the ribbed front output.

[peesalot]

shifter, shift rail either way it twernt in gear all da way if so.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by peesalot

shifter, shift rail either way it twernt in gear all da way if so.

Not necessarily John.


There have been more than a few people out here that have posted up that there transfer case will not stay in gear, Orion or stock, only to discover that a shift boot is putting a bind on the linkage and preventing a positive shift/gear engagement, or that the linkage that they fabricated/installed is not fully shifting the case into gear or that they have broken engine mounts that are not keeping the drive train secure and allowing it to move, causing the shifter/linkage to have forces placed on it when the drive train moves, kicking the case out of gear.

[peesalot]

Ahhh, I get it now, thanks. I just take it for granted that people have sorted those issues out.

Along those lines and not discussed yet. Do you favor any certain shifter set -up for the orion or stock case for that matter ?

Do you feel the AA twin stick is any better than a stocker with modified gates ?

Have you seen and noted or not noted the effect of the shift collar on the shift fork pads ? I am interested in wether the pressure causing the gear popping is constant and wearing the pads at end of shift fork or more of a periodic contact which is causing marginal if any extra wear at that point ? It feels as if it is a periodic pop upon decceleration that causes it to pop on mine.

We have established that the shift collar to gear contact area takes no wear. Have you had a chance to see if the back cut gears are solving that issue and not contacting collar ? just curious?