[matt.mcinnes]

Things move slowly but they move, I'm told all good things come to those who wait, I'M JUST IMPATIENT

The conrods were in the end ordered from here Argo Race as they came recomended and also save on shipping from the USA and are about 4 weeks away.

The use of custom length con rods allows us to use off the shelf JE Pistions JEPistons.com | JE Pistons which will have the coated skirt and ceramic tops.

Still waiting on the high flow injectors from Bosch Grrrrrr

But getting there

[Mark W]

So you shortened up the connecting rods?

If so... Be careful with your rpms.


Mark...

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by Mark W

So you shortened up the connecting rods?

If so... Be careful with your rpms.


Mark...

Why?

And

Your recomended RPM if so?

[Mark W]

Sorry... I was thinking about the 3F, not your 2FE set up.

In the case of the 3F, the short rod and short bore already put a lot of stress on the piston skirt. The piston drops out of the bore, almost to the pin. The rod is at a sharp angle when the crank is at 90* from TDC/BDC. Any shortening of the rod will only increase this angle/stress.
I've shattered two different pistons (skirts) in 3FEs from too much RPM. A cammed 3FE likes to turn up nicely. But the pistons can't take what the rest of the motor wants to do. Keep it below 5000. Factory redline of 4500 is not a bad idea.

I am actually more comfortable with a 2F at this RPM range than I am with a 3F. The much longer rod and longer bore eliminate this particular weakness. Achilles heel of the 2F is the rod bolts. These can be upgraded. The rod and bore of the 3F can not be changed.

If you are not shortening you 2F rods by much, then you should not have any skirt worries.

Without upgraded rod bolts, I'd still keep it under 5000, even with the 2F.


Mark...

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by Mark W

Sorry... I was thinking about the 3F, not your 2FE set up.

In the case of the 3F, the short rod and short bore already put a lot of stress on the piston skirt. The piston drops out of the bore, almost to the pin. The rod is at a sharp angle when the crank is at 90* from TDC/BDC. Any shortening of the rod will only increase this angle/stress.
I've shattered two different pistons (skirts) in 3FEs from too much RPM. A cammed 3FE likes to turn up nicely. But the pistons can't take what the rest of the motor wants to do. Keep it below 5000. Factory redline of 4500 is not a bad idea.

I am actually more comfortable with a 2F at this RPM range than I am with a 3F. The much longer rod and longer bore eliminate this particular weakness. Achilles heel of the 2F is the rod bolts. These can be upgraded. The rod and bore of the 3F can not be changed.

If you are not shortening you 2F rods by much, then you should not have any skirt worries.

Without upgraded rod bolts, I'd still keep it under 5000, even with the 2F.


Mark...

The rod bolts will for sure be upgraded with the custom con rods and the Rev Limiter will be set to 5,500. At the end of the day I,m not looking for a super high revving engine and 5,500 will be hairy enough for me

[matt.mcinnes]

Found a post on Outerlimits4x4 looking for a 3F block

I have one of those kicking around in the shed cant imagin where from

So the block from the 3F-E is gone for $100US

[seaeagle]

and to a good home it has gone....thx matt.
i think the 1 st thing i need to do when mines up and running is get a rev limitter, or stop wearing boots...lol

btw i know its been said b4...great post, so much to learn, sent the wife into town to watch a movie so i cound use the dishwasher...lol, now to work out how to open it

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

and to a good home it has gone....thx matt.
i think the 1 st thing i need to do when mines up and running is get a rev limitter, or stop wearing boots...lol

btw i know its been said b4...great post, so much to learn, sent the wife into town to watch a movie so i cound use the dishwasher...lol, now to work out how to open it

Hopefully the block is as good as it looks and you wont need as much of the big right boot. let me know how you get on. As for the dishwasher I spray my parts with splenty of De-greaser leave them to soak a few hours and then was in the dish washer.

Matt

[matt.mcinnes]

Well time ticks by the custom con rods from Argo with high grade rod bolts will be in next week H beams too to my suprise for some reason I was expecting I beams they are also about 1mm shorter than the original ones. $1100US OUCH.

The JE piston will now be a stock Chev Flat top with Teflon coated skirt and Ceramic coated top. But these it seems will have a small recess machined into them to get the compression just perfect for the turbo. $800US before coatings

The end of Aug and the removal of the block creaps forever closer.

[matt.mcinnes]

Well another piece of the puzzle arrived this morning.

A 3F FSM

I have a question for you in the USA, here the 3F-E manual RM134E is a supplement to the 3F manual 36253E, however in the USA the 3F was never available I believe, so do you have one complete manual or is the 3F-E still a supplement to the 3F which you never got?

[pappy]

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

Well another piece of the puzzle arrived this morning.



I have a question for you in the USA, here the 3F-E manual RM134E is a supplement to the 3F manual 36253E, however in the USA the 3F was never available I believe, so do you have one complete manual or is the 3F-E still a supplement to the 3F which you never got?

Yes, one FJ62 manual. No manual tranny, no carb.

[matt.mcinnes]

Where here the 62 was Carby, manual or auto, only the early 80 series had the 3F or 3F-E which means slim pickings for us trying to make a 2F-E or better.

But we have plenty of manual boxes, some ya win some ya lose

[matt.mcinnes]

Here are the specs for the for the 2F and 3F-E Pistons and Rods



Also Toyota original performance figures.

[matt.mcinnes]

The JE pistons we will be using are Part No 170770 which will require Re-bore to 3.736

Can anyone tell me how many more cc this will give me and don't forget I'm imperially challenged

[pappy]

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

The JE pistons we will be using are Part No 170771 which will require Re-bore to 3.766

Can anyone tell me how many more cc this will give me and don't forget I'm imperially challenged

I get 4380.9cc.

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by pappy

I get 4380.9cc.

Thanks Pappy, I found this which says your spot on Displacement calculator

It even gives you the bore stroke ratio now I have to read up on somthing else

Edit.

Bore now only 3.736 displacement now 4311cc/263ci

[matt.mcinnes]

Made a start on the manifold bolts today which I kept separate as their seemed to be a strange mix of studs and blots as well as various sizes. I have noticed in the past genuine Toyota bolts have head sizes that maybe different to what the local auto shop may supply and these are fine thread too.



A 17mm Bolt Torque spec 51ft-lb or 69Nm
B 14mm Bolt Torque spec 37ft-lb or 50Nm
C Nut Torque spec 41ft-lb or 56Nm

Work has a pressure washer that has a fine grain sand in it, a little like shot blasting but far less abrasive, It wont damage the surface of steel.

Works a treat too

[Project60]

Bolts turned out nice! Any damage to the threads for just a gentle cleaning?

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by Project60

Bolts turned out nice! Any damage to the threads for just a gentle cleaning?

Just a gentle cleaning, the pressure washer/soft shot blaster is designed for cleaning precision plastic injection mould tools with a highly polished surface without damaging them. The sand/grain in it is extremely fine unlike the shot blaster we have that's very course in comparison.

Works a treat on my nuts and bolts too.

[matt.mcinnes]

Should I or Shouldn't I.

All these dollars going into the engine most of it internal and never to been seen again or at least I hope so, I was wondering if I should have the 2F Aluminium rocker cover PIMPED your thoughts?

[bad_religion_au]

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

Should I or Shouldn't I.

All these dollars going into the engine most of it internal and never to been seen again or at least I hope so, I was wondering if I should have the 2F Aluminium rocker cover PIMPED your thoughts?

of course you should matt. gotta at least let people know it's a polished turd

so what's happening with the old motor (i'll read the rest of this thread later)

[Pin_Head]

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

Should I have the 2F Aluminium rocker cover PIMPED your thoughts?

Sure. Why not dress it up a bit?



Did yor start it up yet?

[bad_religion_au]

Originally Posted by bad_religion_au

of course you should matt. gotta at least let people know it's a polished turd

so what's happening with the old motor (i'll read the rest of this thread later)

so your basically dumping everything into the old motor.

lol, shoulda put a holler out for a 2f block to use to build this monster and kept the original to sell as a whole.

do you still need some 2f bottom end bits for your builder to squiz at? i'll be sending mine to the scrap yard sometime soon, so i can salvage anything you need. hopefully will be able to get it to melbourne by the start of august too if that helps.

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by bad_religion_au

of course you should Matt. gotta at least let people know it's a polished turd

so what's happening with the old motor (I'll read the rest of this thread later)

Left over will be the worked 2F head, and Gas converter and carby set up, ceramic coated extractors and Piranha optical dizzy system.

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

Sure. Why not dress it up a bit?

Did you start it up yet?

I have a competition on August 24,25,26. Vic Winch 07, once that's out of the way the 2F will be coming out for the transformation ready for 2008's round of Comps.


Vic 06 Second fastest on SS12

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by bad_religion_au

so your basically dumping everything into the old motor.

lol, shoulda put a holler out for a 2f block to use to build this monster and kept the original to sell as a whole.

do you still need some 2f bottom end bits for your builder to squiz at? I'll be sending mine to the scrap yard sometime soon, so i can salvage anything you need. hopefully will be able to get it to Melbourne by the start of august too if that helps.

Thanks but its all good, I picked a short block up for a $100 for the engine builder to play with.

As for the block I thought about using another to build the 3F-ETI but this has been the hart of this 40 from its inception and I'm sentimental. In fact it's the only original bit left I think.

BUT IT'S ALL TOYOTA

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by Project60

Bolts turned out nice! Any damage to the threads for just a gentle cleaning?

Finished the whole set now



SPANKING

[matt.mcinnes]

Well finally gave up on the injectors from Bosch, but that's what you get when you order from a friend of a friend who works for Bosch.


Picked these up on eBay and saved $450. I'll have them cleaned and tested.



The stock 3F-E injectors are rated at 213cc Per Min/42.6hp which when multiplied by 6 gives you a grand total of 255.6hp, this seems well above the required 155hp max of the stock engine even at the recommended 90% of their duty cycle.

My engine builder is however talking 300hp + so if he is on the money they will be too small.

These from a Nissan Skyline R32 RB20 however are rated at 270cc Per Min/55hp or 324hp in total, if however these are also too small a small rise in fuel pressure will do the trick I believe

Injector flow rates

[Moby]

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

The stock 3F-E injectors are rated at 213cc Per Min/42.6hp which when multiplied by 6 gives you a grand total of 255.6hp, this seems well above the required 155hp max of the stock engine even at the recommended 90% of their duty cycle.

Doesn't sound like you're going to be in those stock injectors for long

From what I've read the recommended duty cycle is 80%. RC Engineering has found that at ~85% duty cycle the injector can't close fast enough and you get uneven, possibly even lower, flow rates until duty cycle rises even higher and the injectors go static. I believe that above 80% there is also an issue with overheating the injectors. Not sure if that applies to all styles of injectors.

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET

Based on the worksheet above using a bsfc of .5 at 80% duty cycle and stock fuel pressure at WOT it looks like ~190hp is the safe limit of the stock 3FE injectors. With a turbo you'd want to bump the bsfc value up (again per RC's worksheet to .6-.65).

Even 190 of course assumes that the stock ECU actually has fuel tables that run that high and that the AFM doesn't get saturated before the fuel tables run out. But I think you've already committed to a programmable ECU, correct?

If you haven't picked an ECU yet consider one that uses a wideband 02. I love my new handheld Innovate wideband 02 meter/recorder, really good feedback on the AFR, way better than the rich/stoic/lean of a standard O2. With a wideband tied directly to a programmable ECU you could probably run closed loop in large areas of the fuel map where a ECU with a standard O2 would have to run open loop...

Great thread, keep it coming!

[matt.mcinnes]

Originally Posted by Moby

Doesn't sound like you're going to be in those stock injectors for long

From what I've read the recommended duty cycle is 80%. RC Engineering has found that at ~85% duty cycle the injector can't close fast enough and you get uneven, possibly even lower, flow rates until duty cycle rises even higher and the injectors go static. I believe that above 80% there is also an issue with overheating the injectors. Not sure if that applies to all styles of injectors.

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET

Based on the worksheet above using a bsfc of .5 at 80% duty cycle and stock fuel pressure at WOT it looks like ~190hp is the safe limit of the stock 3FE injectors. With a turbo you'd want to bump the bsfc value up (again per RC's worksheet to .6-.65).

Even 190 of course assumes that the stock ECU actually has fuel tables that run that high and that the AFM doesn't get saturated before the fuel tables run out. But I think you've already committed to a programmable ECU, correct?

If you haven't picked an ECU yet consider one that uses a wideband 02. I love my new handheld Innovate wideband 02 meter/recorder, really good feedback on the AFR, way better than the rich/stoic/lean of a standard O2. With a wideband tied directly to a programmable ECU you could probably run closed loop in large areas of the fuel map where a ECU with a standard O2 would have to run open loop...

Great thread, keep it coming!

Thanks for the link interesting reading now where is my calculator

Were not running an AFM at all just going with a MAP sensor, the ECU will be from Autronic and fully programable yes.

Also the Nissan Skyliner injectors are not compatibale with the fuel rail grrrrrr close but no cigar so back to the drawing board there, are well only $50 Aus back on Ebay they go.

[matt.mcinnes]

It's been one of those weeks but out of the fire the Phoenix rises.

The con rods from Argo are no more due to some mix up in communication and final price Not my problem at least.

But as it happens one of the engine builders employees is rebuilding a Jaguar straight 6 cylinder 4.2Ltr E TYPE for himself and guess what the con rod length is very close indeed They are also much stronger by design, rod bolts will be custom still. Best off all they will be around the $800 rather than the $1300 new.

So now we are back to stock Jaguar con rods and custom pistons.



Something like 15 thou has to be ground of the crank as the bearings are slightly smaller but no great issue I'm told. They are also narrower than at the crank so thrust will be from the piston. Oiling too will be less of an issue with these it seems.

Some E TYPE specs http://carfolio.com/specifications/m...r=58773&Jaguar