2F + 3F-E = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40

matt.mcinnes · 03-07-07, 06:16 AM

Called iin at the engine builder today, head should be finished early next week. He's also been good enough to take a few photos of the work, Will post them up as soon as I have them.

matt.mcinnes · 03-09-07, 02:54 AM

Head done picking it up Wednesday

FJ40Jim · 03-09-07, 08:10 AM

Matt,
Would you post a pic of the combustion faces of the OE valves?

It would be good to show people the _large_ recess in the stock valves, particularly the 3FE intake.

Just by installing flat face valves, the CR will be raised quite a bit in the 3FE.

matt.mcinnes · 03-09-07, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FJ40Jim

Matt,
Would you post a pic of the combustion faces of the OE valves?

It would be good to show people the _large_ recess in the stock valves, particularly the 3FE intake.

Just by installing flat face valves, the CR will be raised quite a bit in the 3FE.

No Problem
Before: The recessed stock 3F-E Valves, a little hard to see but you can make it out

After: Flat faced Ferrea Winsor Valves

stumpy · 03-09-07, 09:38 AM

mmmm.... my head looks almost identical! did you CC the chambers? i was going to but was told it wasnt worth the effort in a 3FE. i wonder just how far off they are....

matt.mcinnes · 03-09-07, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

mmmm.... my head looks almost identical! did you CC the chambers? i was going to but was told it wasnt worth the effort in a 3FE. i wonder just how far off they are....

The chambers were cc'd before the work started as I wanted the compression ration to be 8.0:1 once it pick it up on Wednesday I will have all the tecnical information including the flow rates as it was tested before and after the work done.

stumpy · 03-09-07, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

I will have all the tecnical information including the flow rates as it was tested before and after the work done.

i am looking forward to seeing it!

Buckwheat · 03-09-07, 11:00 PM

Have you resolved issues about underhood clearance, fuel lines & tank sufficient for the increased pressure, ECM & harness routing & splicing, those kinds of things? What about gauges? Also the head is the closed chamber design, correct? Any issues with using the 2F flat top piston design? I know you've discussed opening up the combustion chambers but that was more for the turbo application, wasn't it? I am considering the 3FE head for my 40, naturally aspirated, but want someone else to do all the difficult, pioneering-type work, someone with the bucks who can afford all the expensive mistakes - my wife is complaining!

Mark W · 03-10-07, 12:44 AM

Plenty of room under a '40 hood for a 2FE. The tank is not pressurized, so that's a non-issue. The designs of the 3F, 3FE, and late model 2F pistons are all the saem so far as the combustion chamber is concerned.

There really isn't anything difficult about building a NA 2FE.

Mark...

matt.mcinnes · 03-10-07, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark W

Plenty of room under a '40 hood for a 2FE. The tank is not pressurized, so that's a non-issue. The designs of the 3F, 3FE, and late model 2F pistons are all the saem so far as the combustion chamber is concerned.

There really isn't anything difficult about building a NA 2FE.

Mark...

I'm with Mark here, I think the issues with clearence is only on the early 80 serise 3F-E converting to the longer stroke 2F block. Rather than the other way around. Can't see an issue with the 60 serise as they came first with the 2F as did the 40's.

The Turbo creates many issues from fuel supply to reliability at high boost.

If I was building a NA 2F-E I would be looking at a higher compression ratio, a lot less work to the block. But still room to experiment and using the ECU and harness from the 3F-E. Where as I will run a stand alone ECU with a harness made to suit it, Motec or Wolf still looking at options here.

I would imagin though the power gains for a de smogged NA 2F-E would be worth the effort. But if you build a NA 2F-E first you would have to start over almost to build a 2F-ETI.

I'm sure we will have some issues to over come but thats the fun of building this and the thread.

matt.mcinnes · 03-12-07, 11:29 PM

The results are in and looking good, just waiting for the graphs from the engine builders.

The cylinder head cc before was 79cc after 80cc with the Ferrea valves but this has remained about the same due to the seating of the valves been deeper I,m told.

stumpy · 03-13-07, 10:35 AM

did you match each chamber? 80ccs is bigger than i was expecting. i would have thought that even though the new valves are seated deeper, your volume would have gone DOWN, not up. what kind of compression are you expecting to get after all is said and done? you took some off the head and block, didnt you? (being lazy, dont want to go back through the whole thread)

Mace · 03-13-07, 10:42 AM

Funny, that head design is significantly different than the 2 2F heads I currently have.

the late model 2F head (off of block #2F 889248) I have looks a lot like a bathtub and the 79 2F head is shallower and flatter.. Also the runners are different profiles between the two motors as well.

Neither has the shaped ports..

matt.mcinnes · 03-13-07, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace

Funny, that head design is significantly different than the 2 2F heads I currently have.

the late model 2F head (off of block #2F 889248) I have looks a lot like a bathtub and the 79 2F head is shallower and flatter.. Also the runners are different profiles between the two motors as well.

Neither has the shaped ports..

I think the shaped inlet ports are only found on the 3F-E head as thats where the injectors sit when the injection rail is bolted up. If I understand you correctly.

Hard to see in this pic but the injection rail seen at the bottom of the photo matches the inlet ports

matt.mcinnes · 03-13-07, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

did you match each chamber? 80ccs is bigger than i was expecting. i would have thought that even though the new valves are seated deeper, your volume would have gone DOWN, not up. what kind of compression are you expecting to get after all is said and done? you took some off the head and block, didnt you? (being lazy, dont want to go back through the whole thread)

The compression will be 8.0:1 but that will be set by the pistons from what I understand not the head cc, although this information is required to set the block and custom pistons to the right hight. Hope that makes sence, trying to take a lot of tec info in from my engine builder here lol

You can see on the second photo on this page that their is some slight machine work to the kidney to accomadate the exhaust port better.

Yes each combustion chamber was tested. This engine will be balanced too.

matt.mcinnes · 03-13-07, 09:19 PM

Found a better photo from before the clean up, you can see the injectors inside, hence the shape of the ports.

matt.mcinnes · 03-13-07, 09:33 PM

Final bill pretty close to the estimate

Also the Flow Test HP, CFM I can't recall old age bad memory waiting on the graphs and figures

Before 250HP AFTER 350HP

Now as I understand it this is not the actual engine HP but just the capasity of the max air flow. I think it's like making sure you have enough gas from your fuel pump.
Eg: not enough fuel been delivered engine will run lean and you need a bigger fuel pump, not enough air and it will run rich and you need to increase your air flow.

AS you can see substantial gains can be made from the above work.

Some one please correct me if I'm wrong

I'm told this increase will suit the Turbo well

Klunky Chris · 03-14-07, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt.mcinnes

Yes each combustion chamber was tested. This engine will be balanced too.

was there a large difference in cc between the chambers? I think some of us are wondering how far off each chamber is.

matt.mcinnes · 03-14-07, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klunky Chris

was there a large difference in cc between the chambers? I think some of us are wondering how far off each chamber is.

No all were pretty close and my engine builder would not have bothered if we were not going to try to push the engine so hard.

Buckwheat · 03-14-07, 08:01 PM

While I was under the hood today observing the dribble of brake fluid down my booster, it made me wonder if the intake on the 3FE set up will clear it. I have seen a lot of posts on that subject. Does the booster need replacement with the mini-truck unit to provide clearance? It looks like a tight fit there.

matt.mcinnes · 03-15-07, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckwheat

While I was under the hood today observing the dribble of brake fluid down my booster, it made me wonder if the intake on the 3FE set up will clear it. I have seen a lot of posts on that subject. Does the booster need replacement with the mini-truck unit to provide clearance? It looks like a tight fit there.

I belive your correct from what I have reading but

I drive on the other side of the road so my brake booster is opposite to your US ones.

agent orange · 03-15-07, 07:06 AM

This is a great thread, thanks for taking so many good pics of the head work. How much meat was taken out of the heads? Im interested to know what kind of material removal nets the best flowbench results.

matt.mcinnes · 03-15-07, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agent orange

This is a great thread, thanks for taking so many good pics of the head work. How much meat was taken out of the heads? Im interested to know what kind of material removal nets the best flowbench results.

Tks, the photos were taken by the engine builder for me.

Hard to say what porting and polishing gains for the flow as the valves were done at the same time, it all certainaly helps. Porting was matched to the manifold gasket I belive, If you look closely at the photos you can see the lines that the ports were opened up to. Pic 4 I think marked on the head.
The big improvment will be from the oversize valves and the selection of the right cam. As I understand it.

The desison on the cam has all ready been made and the air flow tests were to this cams specs.

Also remember this will be as you say, De Smogged

matt.mcinnes · 03-15-07, 11:32 PM

Picked the head up today

Here's a photo of the intake maiifold which has been ported to match the head, the hole at the top of th port is where the injector sits.

Well that's stage one just about complete just waiting on a few gaskets from Toyota Japan.

The flow graphs I chassed up today and should be with us shortly.

matt.mcinnes · 03-17-07, 05:14 PM

Gasket Part No for the 3F-E injection system and Thermostat housing genuine.

Manifold 17172-61060 Ex Japan only ordered 2
Air Surge 17176-61020 Only 11 left in Australia bought 2
Throtle body 22271-61020 Only 2 left in Australia bought both now Ex Japan only
Thermostat/head 16343-61020 Had no trouble getting this but think it will be the same on a 3F
Theromstat housing 16341-61030 Had No trouble getting this but think it will be the same as a 3F
Cold Stat injector 23293-61010 Ex Japan only ordered 2
Idle speed control valve 22278-61010 Ex Japan only ordered 2

Here in OZ the 3F-E only came in the very early 80 series 90-92 I think, as far as I can see the 62 series carried the 3F as we did not have the same emision restrictions. This however means that Toyota carry very few parts on the shelf for the 3F-E here, due to the short life span. Hence buying 2 of each gasket.

stumpy · 03-21-07, 10:21 PM

matt-

i had a long chat with FJ40Jim today about the ECM in a build like yours. i am building something similar and some tuning issues came up. are you planning on using the 3FE ECM? with the additional air and fuel moving through this setup, the ECM may not have enough adjustment ability to compensate for the need for more fuel. since the map also controls spark, you may not be able to get the proper spark curve to get maximum performance. sure, it could handle a mild build, but bumping the compression, more engine volume, better flow, AND a turbo, it seems like you might need a programmable system.

opinions?

matt.mcinnes · 03-22-07, 08:36 AM

Yep we will be running a new ECU as yet undecided on which and a custom loom too. No air flow meter just a M.A.P sensor from what I understand and a knock sensor as well as a few more, like I have said, this is all very new to me so learning as I go with Turbo, EFI, ECU but it's fun.

Currently looking at Motec and Wolf

matt.mcinnes · 03-25-07, 04:57 PM

As far as I can see I have two MoTec units to pick from the older M48 and the new generation M600

http://www.motec.com.au/m48.htm

http://www.motec.com.au/m400m600.htm

They also seem to have the best part and accesories to go with them.

http://www.motec.com.au/pdf/MoTeC_Catalog.pdf

The Wolf system is the V500, a good bit cheaper too and includes a loom where the Motoec doesn't

http://wolfems.cart.net.au/details/635751.html

Still looking into others though.

stumpy · 03-26-07, 10:42 AM

MoTeC looks interesting. i am going to study that one. i like the ability to run sequential injection, although most of the research i have done says that it wont make much difference in a cruiser. i have been looking into megasquirt for a setup to run my system but i am always open to options. you find a price list anywhere? i just browsed the site and havent found anything...

matt.mcinnes · 03-26-07, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

MoTeC looks interesting. i am going to study that one. i like the ability to run sequential injection, although most of the research i have done says that it wont make much difference in a cruiser. i have been looking into megasquirt for a setup to run my system but i am always open to options. you find a price list anywhere? i just browsed the site and havent found anything...