adjusting the valves

[swank60]

So, in all of the work I had to do to pass inspection (yet still didn't) one thing has been bothering me - the valve adjustment.

Here's the rub:
All of the manuals say one thing - TDC, andjust certain valves, turn it 360 degrees, adjust the rest, right? I called the tech line at Man-A-Fre, and the guy tells me that the way they do it is to put each cyl at TDC on the compression stroke and adjust from there. He said that the manual was absolutely wrong. He also said that they have Toyota dealerships, who, when they can't get it right, send it out to them, and that's how they do it.

Anyone care to weigh in on this? Are the pistons in the 2F slightly staggered or something? Why would one method be better than the other?

It's stupid crap like this that keeps me up at night.

[Landpimp]

AFAIK the manual is right and thats how I do mine. But maybe the other method works.....I don't know?

[rodan]

Putting each cylinder on the compression stroke at TDC will work on any engine. Think about it, if the cylinder is on the compression stroke the valves have to be closed. You want the valves closed when you adjust the them. I have not followed the engine manuals way but I think they are trying to save you some time by not having to turn the engine over as many times. But if you do put the engine on TDC of the compression stroke on each cylinder you can't go wrong.
Ray

[IDave]

For the F engine, (and I assume the 2F is really no different, since it ISN'T different on this point), the OEM Toyota Engine Manual says to check the valve lash with the engine idling.

IF you check the gap and set it with the engine stopped, by the time you've gotten to the 3rd or 4th valve, your engine is starting to cool. This will throw off your measurements, because the valve parts cool and contract. You will end up with clearances that are too tight as a result, not to mention different for different valves because your temps changed gradually. You have to keep the engine running to adjust the valves at operating temperature.

Yesterday, I did it with a go-nogo feeler guage (available at NAPA), and this makes an excellent method better. With this method, the feeler goes in if the gap is wide enough. Don't worry about futzing around finding TDC, it will slide in when the valve is closed (which is 3/4 of the cycle). If the feeler won't go in, your clearance is too tight. If the next up (no-go) size feeler goes through, you are too loose. You then stop the engine when you have to and adjust slightly depending on the need.

You will find that the gap changes from the time you measure it to the time you tighten it and then again the time you run it. I believe it is because the rocker arms get a little torqued and unbalanced once you start turning nuts and screws. It matters not a bit whatsoever what the clearance is at any time except when the engine is running. That is the clearance measurement you are interested in.

I know there are those who disagree. That is because they've never done it this way, so I forgive them.

Again, this is the way the Toyota engineers tell you to do it.

[red66toy]

So as the engine is running you try and stick in the feeler guage? That won't mess anything up? I am planning on adjusting my valves tomorrow so I am curious now what way is better. Thanks.

[IDave]

(Sorry about that edit, Red64toy)

YES, engine running. This is the easier way, as well as being far more accurate.

Those feeler gauges are springy for a reason. It is possible (by really jam forcing them into a too tight situation) to wear out the gauge and thin the gauge metal after a while. I did that at first when I was trying too hard to get the feeler in there with the clearance too tight (it can be forced, rather than slid. You want "slid".) That is why I bought a new gauge. (Gauges are far cheaper than trips to the mechanic at $50 - $75/hr). But you won't hurt the engine parts.

[red66toy]

Thanks for the help. I will go and pick up some ot those feeler guages at napa tomorrow.

[ranger]

The only valve lash that I have ever heard of adjusting with the engine running would be valve trains with hydraulic lifters, and you don't use a feeler gauge to do it. This is not the case with a 1F or 2F.
Adjust valves at normal operating temperature, not while running. The method manafre does the adjustment is correct, and the most accurate.
I don't even understand the concept of checking valve clearance with a feeler gauge while the engine is running, you'll pound the crap out of your feeler gauge, and accomplish nothing.

[Rice]

It is not incorrect to use a feeler guage with the engine running (solid lifter, not hydraulic), it's just old school. Busch and Cup builders adjust with engine hot and not running. The amount of contraction that occurs in that time is minimal.

[Overlord]

[quote author=ranger link=board=1;threadid=13366;start=msg123769#msg123 769 date=1079682483]
The only valve lash that I have ever heard of adjusting with the engine running would be valve trains with hydraulic lifters, and you don't use a feeler gauge to do it. This is not the case with a 1F or 2F.
Adjust valves at normal operating temperature, not while running. The method manafre does the adjustment is correct, and the most accurate.
I don't even understand the concept of checking valve clearance with a feeler gauge while the engine is running, you'll pound the crap out of your feeler gauge, and accomplish nothing.

[/quote]

The 2F manual says to do it while the engine is running. Maybe Toyota doesn't know what they are talking about though.

[Landpimp]

yes the old F manuals say to do this(when running), 2f/3fe does not, at least in all the OEM manauls I have.

I have done it with the motor running as well, but its not easy to do, even with the nifty Snap On tool(it holds the adjustment nut and turns the set screw) and its not possible to do it like this on a 3fe because a 3fe won't run with all the vacuum hoses off or the valve cover off......and a 3fe is nothing really more than a 2f with FI,

My best valve adjustments have been done with the motor stoped, it really takes very little time to do, the motor can be left running(when you take all the crap off to get to the valves) right up till you start the adjustment, so it cools very little, it might take 15 min to adjust the actaull valves. If you think its cooled to much, just put the valve cover back on(or run it with the cover off) and run it for a bit, then do the rest of the valves. If you want you can test your work when the motor is running.

[Jukelemon]

If I recall correctly, the 2f manual states to MEASURE valves while the engine is running but ADJUST using the method as described in the first post i.e. 360 rotational method. I have never adjusted valves on this particular engine but I have on others ranging from Harleys to Fords. Exact valve clearance measurements, to me at least, is nearly impossible on a older vehicle. Not saying that you cannot get the engine to run right and well for that matter, BUT you will always be off some by the fact that there is no specific definition of the specific feeling/match of a feeler gauge in a corectly adjusted valve. Point being, you are not working on a Porsche engine and all of the methods above will work/have worked/will continue to work because the f or 2f is not the most efficient engine and should be, like other older engines, OK with the discrepancies caused from different measurement/adjusting techniques. So, swank, do not sweat it. Try both. See if they both work and if there is a difference. My guess is that you will find there is none i.e. all work very well.

[Landpimp]

odd the 76 2f motor FSM says to adjust when not running.

the 80-87 says to check when running, but its kinda foggy on to adjust running or not, but it never mentions how to put the valves into the right spot to adjust when off........so I must assume they expect you do adjust when running.......

[IDave]

I certainly do the adjusting with the engine stopped, although I know there are those who do it running. I would just challenge anyone to measure and set the valves with the engine stopped, then go back and measure the clearances running, and see just how far off they end up. I've done it plenty enough times to know that what you measure in the stopped position is very often different from what you have when you start it up again.

If you end up with too narrow of clearances you will get rough running, loss of power, missing, and carbon buildup. It doesn't require things to be too far off to make a palpable difference, and you could damage your engine.

[60wag]

I've used this procedure on the valves many times. Works well and is simple to do. Plus, I respect the source.

http://www.birfield.com/~morgan/tech/valves.html

[Wildabeast60]

I guess I'll weigh in on this one...When we had the head milled down and put back on (after an overheat and blown head gasket) we ran that sucker with the cover off and checked our adjustments with said feeler gauge. It's been 6 years, but I think we shut it down to make any adjustments. When we got done, that bad boy purred like a kitten. 2F on an '84 FJ60. Took us about an hour for the whole deal!

[Pin_Head]

There are lots of ways to adjust valves and they are all good if done properly.

I prefer checking them while running and adjusting any that need it when it is stopped. It is fast, but don't do this while wearing a neck tie.

The second choice is to just adjust each one at TDC. You just rotate the engine until the intake valve comes up and stops for each cylinder.

I almost never use the TCD method because I would have to go look up which ones to adjust and this would take more time than just doing it with the other two methods.

[me78he78]

feeler guage = NAPA part # SER170 btw.... 12 bucks

[swank60]

You know what, I forgot to mention the the running method - guess I blocked it out. The 1980 OEM manual that I have for the engine only is foggy, like Pimp said - that's under the tune up section (2-19). However, in the next section, it goes into the stopped engine method (section 3-19).

I was confused by the whole running engine/adjustment thing. I was hoping to keep my fingers. It makes a lot more sense to check the clearance while running, then shutting it off to adjust. However, the whole man-a-fre thing sounds good, but I don't have a full weekend just to piddle with the valves.

I'll head out to NAPA this weekend and get me one of them there fant-cy feeler gauges and inlist some poor sucker to help me in the next week or two.

[wesintl]

while i understand the concept of checking while running i'm with ranger that it hammered the crap out of the feeler and almost ruined it. How do you check it without ruining the feelers. vwerry vwerry carefully or what? I end up doing the intake.. fire it up to heat it back up and then do the exhaust. Depending on how out of adjustment they were i'll double check them..

[IDave]

Unless you are putting the feeler into a gap that is far too wide, there will be NO pounding on the feeler. It will simply fill the gap.
And, the gap was probably too wide because it was set by the TDC method.

[brian]

i check and adjust with it running.
if you use the same set of gauges every single time you do it, then yes you will wear out the feeler gauges.
i've been useing the same set for a couple yrs now, and before i check them next time, i'll need to pick a set of gauges up.

i preffer to do it running. however this method would probably almost impossible for one person to do.
one person mans the feeler gauges, while the other does the adjusting. it takes a few times to get the hang of trying to adjust a valve that's moving, but once you get the feel for it, it's cake.
half hour job from lifting the hood to backing it of the garage.

[Landpimp]

Snap On makes a nifty tool that make it a "bit" easier, they don't list it for a Toyota but for a Cummins I think, it takes what ever size deep socket(as some 2f's are 17mm others 14mm) and has a flat blade screw driver built into it(goes thru the socket), its not cheap but I found a used on on Ebay for $12.

John H

[quote author=brian link=board=1;threadid=13366;start=msg123994#msg123 994 date=1079727528]
i check and adjust with it running.
if you use the same set of gauges every single time you do it, then yes you will wear out the feeler gauges.
i've been useing the same set for a couple yrs now, and before i check them next time, i'll need to pick a set of gauges up.

i preffer to do it running. however this method would probably almost impossible for one person to do.
one person mans the feeler gauges, while the other does the adjusting. it takes a few times to get the hang of trying to adjust a valve that's moving, but once you get the feel for it, it's cake.
half hour job from lifting the hood to backing it of the garage.
[/quote]

[jwest]

The section under 3-19 is a cold preliminary adjustment for cylinder head re-assembly, etc. Tuned adjustment should be checked idling and hot.

Landpimp, I saw that tool. Has the flat head and 12mm jam nut in one. Nice, but you still need two hands to tighten. I can picture a tool that holds the flat head screw stationary while you squeeze a ratchet to tighten the jam nut using only one hand. So much for dreaming...

[jim45r]

I'd like to know which toyota dealerships have to send out their trucks to get the valve adjustments right . . . I think that there may be a little smoke-blowing going on . . . As for the difference between the TDC method and the 360 degree method, if you know what you're doing, it shouldn't make a difference. If you don't start out in the wrong place (like on a cam ramp) the 360 method works fine. The TDC method works fine, too, and can be fast if you remember the firing order, have a starter switch, and have a good feel for bumping the motor around with it. Remember, the only thing that's critical is that you adjust the valve with the valve train on the heel of the cam lobe. There are a number of different ways to know this, but TDC is the most evident.
If you're fairly new to wrenching on your own rig and not really comfortably familiar with your understanding of the way it all works together yet, then the TDC method is pretty fool-proof (well, depending on how well you can find TDC).

[swank60]

jwest - I saw a rachet the other day that had a t handle at the end that was used to turn the rachet in reverse - it's only a half step there, but close.

Jim - yeah, that was a pretty big claim now that you mention it, but you know, you start worrying about other things and loose sight of that sort of thing...plus, dealerships don't ALWAYS get it right...

And I'm confortable enough wrenching on the thing, the valves are just critical enough that I'd screw them up and make things worse - and after hearing so many ways to do it (without much discussion, I might add) only made things muddier. I knew I could come here and hear it from guys keeping their rigs on the road, not a manual that was translated from Japanese to English at one point in it's life or a guy trying to sell you on how great his company is...I'd trust the guy who'se been under his hood screwing with the adjustment 3 weekends in a row over just about anything else you can get.

[IDave]

Let us know how it goes!

[MD11Fr8Dog]

[quote author=Landpimp link=board=1;threadid=13366;start=msg124000#msg124 000 date=1079727795]
Snap On makes a nifty tool that make it a "bit" easier, they don't list it for a Toyota but for a Cummins I think, it takes what ever size deep socket(as some 2f's are 17mm others 14mm) and has a flat blade screw driver built into it(goes thru the socket), its not cheap but I found a used on on Ebay for $12.

John H
[/quote]

What's the tool number for that one??

[jwest]

I was just looking at them today. Hope you don't mind me steppin' in...
This one's YA8880. Sold by snap-on but made my another company.

[jwest]

This one too...
P/N V22A