Transfer case will not engage front axle-still

spdwaver1 · 08-06-06, 09:25 PM

Ok. This is the second time I am posting this problem. I finally got around to doing all of the things that I was advised to do both on this site and from other owners, such as:

Disconnect the vacuum lines to see if there is any vacuum...

Blow air through the line to see if the diaphragm moves...

Cleared out the filter box...

Cleared out all the lines...

Checked for vacuum leaks...

Well, all of this advice certainly got me familiarized with my parts, but I still cannot activate the fron shaft. I marked the shaft and the diff. to see if it rotates, put it in low and walked along side it, pushed/pulled the shaft while rolling and in neutral; I did everything I could think of. When I engaged the shaft, I could only hear it klunk when it was in gear, not while in neutral.

Nothing.

Any more advice would most definetely be appreciated.

FF LC FREAK · 08-07-06, 01:51 AM

Sorry, I don't know much about a '66, but on my 71 I need to pull the FD knob to engage the front axle. The transfer case lever only shifts from hi to low. Is it the same on a 66? I hope this isn't too elementary for you(i.e. like saying "my car is overheating", well then check the water in the radiator!).

Good luck!

IDave · 08-07-06, 07:38 AM

Time to take it apart!

honk · 08-07-06, 08:03 AM

You hear the front driveshaft clunk when engaged? Do you have the hubs locked?

shelfboy1 · 08-07-06, 08:34 AM

did you manually engage it grab the shaft and pull it out and see if the d shaft locks if it does then your problem is in the vacum circuit you may need a bar to move it if the shaft moves out and it does not engage then there is another problem ive seen these put together and the shift fork is not in the collar or the fork pin broke inside the front cone if the system is working right you should be able to see it move when someone pulls the button good luck hope this helps

Pin_Head · 08-07-06, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdwaver1

Nothing.

Any more advice would most definetely be appreciated.

Nothing what?

You mentioned everything you checked, but you didn't tell us what the results were. Kind of hard to make a recommendation if we don't know what is going on.

you didn't mention whether the vacuum on the actuator line was good or anything else.

So what makes you think the front shaft isn't engaging?

Basically, the vacuum shifter just couples the front output of the transfer with the main output shaft. It is easy to check if it is coupled:
With the hubs unlocked and the truck parked, get under and turn the front driveshaft. If it turns, it is uncoupled; if you cant turn it it is engaged.

spdwaver1 · 08-07-06, 01:07 PM

I agree with IDave and Shelfboy. Perhaps the fork is not even in position, or just plain not there? Guess I'll have to take it apart.

*Honk: I do not hear the front driveshaft engage, only somewhere at the t-case. The hubs have not been locked for testing reasons (the shaft spins only when locked, whether in neutral or in gear).

Pin_Head...Sorry to be so non-specific with the word 'nothing.' I have tried what you are saying. I meant that when I said that I did 'everything' and the results were 'nothing,' the shaft always spins freely. All components seemed to be working. I even heard the clunk that the t-case will make when engaged; it just will not engage.

'Nothing' actually means that the front shaft NEVER engages, no matter what I do. To verify that it doesn't engage, I turned the shaft; it moves freely. I put it in gear, without the hubs locked, while vacuum engaged, to see if the shaft would turn (it always turns if the hubs are locked) out of the case; while driving, it did not turn. When parked, I can turn it by hand, no matter what I do with the hubs unlocked.

spdwaver1 · 08-17-06, 12:43 AM

Time to take it apart.....

Anything in particular I should look for when I pull it apart? Other than a missing shift fork, is there anything that I should look for?

Poser replied on another post:

Did the front drive shift fork get replaced when the Orion was built?

What is the condition of the front drive coupler and fork?

If these are worn, you could have this issue from them.

I would look at this area and try and figure out what is going on.

Guess this is where I will start.

Pin_Head · 08-17-06, 12:56 AM

Just take the 2w/4w vacuum actuator off of the front nose cone. You should see a sliding "shift collar" with a radial groove in the square window. Move this shift collar back and forth to see if the front drive engages. If so, then the problem is in the vacuum actuator. Take it apart and see if anything is frozen or stuck.

The Orion uses the same stock actuator and fork.

shelfboy1 · 08-17-06, 06:39 AM

ive seen tham put together and the fork is not in the shifter cone that slides back and forth there are 4 bolts that hold that assembly on then you can see if something is broke in there with the vacum stuff off you can move the cone forward and lock the 2 shafts together hope this helps

spdwaver1 · 08-17-06, 08:09 AM

Thanks Pin_Head,

Will do just that. The problem just may be that the worn original parts were not properly installed by AA, or just plain missing something.

Shelfboy: I will take apart all that is needed to get to it, and yes that helps.

I will post progress.

Poser · 08-17-06, 09:19 AM

When you remove the front drive actuator, there will be a fork that slips into a groove on the front drive coupler. This fork groove on the coupler divides the coupler into two parts; a thick or wider side and a thin side. The thick side of the coupler MUST be facing the transfer case and NOT the drive shaft. This can be installed backwards, and would act as you have been describing.

Remove the four bolts retaining the actuator on the nose cone and verify the orientation of the front drive coupler. In the event that it is installed backwards, remove the five bolts retaining the nose cone on the transfer case and remove the nose cone. Turn the coupler around and install it on the transfer case main shaft, and then reinstall the nose cone.

No big deal.

Good luck!

-Steve

Poser · 08-17-06, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdwaver1

Ok. This is the second time I am posting this problem. I finally got around to doing all of the things that I was advised to do both on this site and from other owners, such as:

Disconnect the vacuum lines to see if there is any vacuum...

Blow air through the line to see if the diaphragm moves...

Cleared out the filter box...

Cleared out all the lines...

Checked for vacuum leaks...

Well, all of this advice certainly got me familiarized with my parts, but I still cannot activate the fron shaft. I marked the shaft and the diff. to see if it rotates, put it in low and walked along side it, pushed/pulled the shaft while rolling and in neutral; I did everything I could think of. When I engaged the shaft, I could only hear it klunk when it was in gear, not while in neutral.

Nothing.

Any more advice would most definetely be appreciated.

Did you ever remove the vacuum actuator from the nose cone and visually verify that the lever is in fact moving, which would also verify the operation of all the other components in the system?

spdwaver1 · 08-18-06, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poser

Did you ever remove the vacuum actuator from the nose cone and visually verify that the lever is in fact moving, which would also verify the operation of all the other components in the system?

Steve,

No, I have not removed it yet, as it is my DD. I will be tearing it down most likely in the next couple of days. Interesting thing though...as you mentioned this:

a thick or wider side and a thin side. The thick side of the coupler MUST be facing the transfer case and NOT the drive shaft. This can be installed backwards, and would act as you have been describing...

...I received a PM from AA regarding the exact same thing, that the coupler may be installed backward. He also cleared up a couple more things that I was mistaken on in previous replies that I posted.

I will keep everyone up to date, and also TRY to post pictures of my findings. (my first attempt at posting pics was not so successful, under Pics Of Red 40's).
Nevertheless, it should prove helpful to the next guy.

My thanks to all, and to AA for their assist. I will keep you informed.

spdwaver1 · 08-18-06, 05:41 PM

One other thing...

SOR is currently out of stock of the manual shifter conversion that they sell. Is there anyone who has made their own unit, that actually worked? I searched, and did not find anyone successful in doing this. I imagine someone has thought about this one time or another...

Poser · 08-18-06, 06:54 PM

Before the 420 and Atlas that are in the Red truck now, I ran a modified Advance Adpaters twin stick set up to control the Land Cruiser transfer case....

spdwaver1 · 08-18-06, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poser

Before the 420 and Atlas that are in the Red truck now, I ran a modified Advance Adpaters twin stick set up to control the Land Cruiser transfer case....

I will look for that, and it has been suggested to me that could do that as well. How did it work for you?

Poser · 08-18-06, 07:08 PM

It worked great, however, it is not a 'bolt on' operation.....you will need to modify the mounting plate where it attaches to the side of the 420, and will likely need to drill and tap a new pivot shat mounting hole for the levers...

I had pictures of this at one time....I will see what I can find.

Poser · 08-18-06, 07:27 PM

Ok, a couple pics:

Here is the pic of the shifter on the 420:

One of the front drive actuator that you will need to get to replace your vacuum unit:

And one of the sticks and boot:

spdwaver1 · 08-18-06, 08:20 PM

Nice setup...very nice.

I do not mind being a little creative to make something like that work. I will have to look into that. Until then, I am going to take your advice and pull it apart to see what I find.

spdwaver1 · 08-19-06, 04:02 PM

Should have a disorganized mess in the garage by 9:30 p.m. tonight, from which I will search through the debris to find my problem.

I will also get to see if this new case is producing any more metal shavings after the last drain and refill I did. (see http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=103882).

Thanks again for all the help on this matter.

spdwaver1 · 08-19-06, 10:01 PM

Getting started right now....

spdwaver1 · 08-19-06, 11:05 PM

Well, I cannot take the four-bolt housing off far enough to see the inside of the nose cone to view the coupler (the frame is in the way), but what I can see is a very badly worn, and even shredded looking shift fork. Guess that is what I need, for one thing. This also may have been the producer of the metal chunks I found in the case when I drained it a couple weeks ago.

So, it would appear that the shaft is so worn that it is not even grabbing anything. Am I correct in my conclusion?

spdwaver1 · 08-20-06, 12:17 AM

The fork is twisted, as you can see. It is worn a few different ways: shaved, bent, twisted, cut, etc. Also found the silver source that I found on my filler plug...very fine and hard-packed to the consistency of modelling clay, with some larger shavings (for added texture).

Can anyone tell me by the series of pics if the rest of the parts in the nose cone appear to be in good condition?

Nothing seems scored as a result of the fork, and the coupler still slides freely and engages the front output shaft (now it engages!!!!!!!!).

spdwaver1 · 08-20-06, 12:27 AM

Poser, I see that the coupler is facing the correct direction as you described - the thicker side facing the transfer case, rather than outward. What would have caused this thing to wear like this? My dad, the PO, installed it himself, and it was not this badly worn. It only has about one thousand miles since it was installed. Only one thing I can think of: The vacuum lines were probably reversed, causing it to be engaged this whole time?? Here are the images:

The silver clay...

Bent fork...

Another shot of the front shift clutch sleeve and teeth. If these appear normal, then I think I only need to replace the fork.

Waddya think?

spdwaver1 · 08-20-06, 12:42 AM

My thoughts:

I see by virtue of the polished look of the thinner end of the sleeve that the fork was resting against it, and not in the groove.

Judging by the lack of wear or polished appearance on the sleeve groove, it would appear that the fork was nowhere near the groove.

Having said that, would I be correct in positioning the fork in the groove of the front drive clutch sleeve when I get the replacement fork?

spdwaver1 · 08-20-06, 02:34 AM

Nevermind, I answered my own question.

spdwaver1 · 08-20-06, 02:53 AM

What would have caused this thing to wear like this? My dad, the PO, installed it himself, and it was not this badly worn. It only has about one thousand miles since it was installed. Only one thing I can think of: The vacuum lines were probably reversed, causing it to be engaged this whole time??

Answers to my own questions:

A. The shift fork was installed while the shaft was in the engaged position toward the rear, and not in the groove of the sleeve itself. Completely missed the mark.

B. While the vacuum had been working properly, it was forcing the fork onto the outer part of the sleeve, causing wear to the fork, in the perfect shape of the sleeve.

Sound about right?

Poser · 08-20-06, 09:10 AM

Clean it up, put a good used fork in there, put it together correctly, and run it.

Good luck!

-Steve

spdwaver1 · 08-20-06, 12:41 PM

My thanks to you again Steve, for leading me directly to the issue.