[dtt255]

Well as some of you may know I went on to the Dirty Toy School this weekend.

In another post I will go into how that went (BTW it was great!)

On Saturday night I was driving back with my Brother-In-Law and we were on a back road coming from Borrego Springs in Southern California.

Well the road had alot of up and downs but they also were very uneven. Meaning the my 200 had to deal with a bit more ROLL left and right then I was used to feeling.

Well I after about 3-4 min of severe rolling I slowed down and stopped. We looked at each other and were pretty scared.

He builds and races Baja buggies and he mentioned that what we were experiencing was nothing normal. I agreed.

My LC always had SOME roll with it but I assumed it was just because it was a 'higher' center of gravity then a normal car.

Well I decided that I was going to get it looked at by Toyota during the week.

The rest of the ride home and the weekend we could not stop talking about it.

We eliminated the new coilovers because them mainly deal with up and down motion, not side to side motion.

The only things that made any sense was the KDSS system.

Remembering the KDSS issue we had when installing the coilovers I decided that there must be an error in the system somewhere. Then it dawned on me. Toyota supposedly 'fixed' the issue I was having before. hmmmm what the hell did they do?!?!

All day at work today I could not get it out of my mind. So I did a search and found the little tech bulletin given out to some spring manufactures and dealers telling how to tighten and loosen the two KDSS valves.

When I got home I put some blocks under the tires and got under the LC with a 5mm allen wrench. I could not believe it.....

THEY LEFT THE DAMN VALVES OPENED!!

FULLY OPEN!!

This could have EASILY killed me!

So to cut this short, please check those valves if ANYONE touches your suspension....ANYONE!

[Michael Hanson]

The dealers need fully trained mechnics.At the dealership I buy parts at I do not think they have one good fully trained mechnic left.

[arbforlc200]

unbelievable! You both could have been killed needlessly! Need a lawyer?

[JBHorne]

Wow, and you just now noticed this?

[Jonty]

There seem to be fewer and fewer good mechanics out there, I think they just train kids to read fault codes and replace parts......

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

unbelievable! You both could have been killed needlessly! Need a lawyer?

You got to be kidding me right? Yes, it was dangerous, but this is someone that willingly modified a stock suspension on a vehicle and then drove it 4-5 months (not sure how long since he installed it) and never noticed the swaybars were not doing their work and now you want to sue someone?

One should take personal responsibility somewhere for what you do to your vehicle. Yes, it is not right that the dealer that tried to fix the vehicle (after the customer made it inoperable due to modifications) made a mistake but it is hardly a law suit.

Who are you going to sue? The vehicle is highly modified with additional weight added to it. Toyota and the dealer can claim the vehicle will function ok even with KDSS disabled in stock form.

Sorry, off my soap box, but not everything warrants.

[dtt255]

Originally Posted by JBHorne

Wow, and you just now noticed this?

Well I noticed some swaying.....but like I mentioned, coming from a car background, I didn't know how much was too much.

Also it was never as bad as it was this trip. Plus with my brothers experience with off road vehicles, he was alot more aware of what was right and wrong.

Of course at this point I now feel very stupid for not noticing it as much as I should have.

[dtt255]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

You got to be kidding me right? Yes, it was dangerous, but this is someone that willingly modified a stock suspension on a vehicle and then drove it 4-5 months (not sure how long since he installed it) and never noticed the swaybars were not doing their work and now you want to sue someone?

One should take personal responsibility somewhere for what you do to your vehicle. Yes, it is not right that the dealer that tried to fix the vehicle (after the customer made it inoperable due to modifications) made a mistake but it is hardly a law suit.

Who are you going to sue? The vehicle is highly modified with additional weight added to it. Toyota and the dealer can claim the vehicle will function ok even with KDSS disabled in stock form.

Sorry, off my soap box, but not everything warrants.

Trust me a lawyer was not on my speed dial

Yes I should have noticed it before. That was my mistake.

I do believe that I have some responsibility in this situation also. I should have double checked toyota's work and know better then to expect them to know EXACTLY what they were doing

I don't think suing them is the answer, but a very loud explanation to the service manager may be in order.

[arbforlc200]

yes...Toyota as an entity can say that dtt has committed an intentional tort against its product i.e. the LC. However, when Mr. consumer visits his authorized dealer and he is willing to pay big bucks for expected work to be performed and the dealer is awared and willing to mods OEM hardware, and then it is not performed to SAFETY standards...it is called breach of contract. It gets even more sticky when someone died/injured when workmanship failed to perform as promised. In omnibus, no entiy can completely indemnify itself from loss or damage. So...beaware if you are also a second tier vendor/supplier.

On a personal note, I agreed with SLee one thing....I will not alter my LC200 since this may reconfigure the intended design of the LC and ultimately resulted in a less safe SUV.

[dtt255]

Igghfffff

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

yes...Toyota as an entity can say that dtt has committed an intentional tort against its product i.e. the LC. However, when Mr. consumer visits his authorized dealer and he is willing to pay big bucks for expected work to be performed and the dealer is awared and willing to mods OEM hardware, and then it is not performed to SAFETY standards...it is called breach of contract. It gets even more sticky when someone died/injured when workmanship failed to perform as promised. In omnibus, no entiy can completely indemnify itself from loss or damage. So...beaware if you are also a second tier vendor/supplier.

On a personal note, I agreed with SLee one thing....I will not alter my LC200 since this may reconfigure the intended design of the LC and ultimately resulted in a less safe SUV.

I understand your position, but sorry I am just from a school where I think there should be some person responsibility. In our business we do have all the necessary insurance in place (that cost a fortune) and do make sure we eliminate these kinds of mistakes, however I would say a used that drives a vehicle for 4 months without noticing this would be party responsible, especially in a case like this where the vehicle is modifying.

Your post re: needing a lawyer and he should sue just rubs me the wrong way. Yes, as a supplier we have to very careful with what we do, but actions like these are driving small businesses to close. We pay 3% of our annual gross sales in product liability and/or competed operations insurance. That is a lot. Especially considering that 70% of our business is reselling parts from other manufacturers, that also carry insurance. All this to protect ourself against suits were we will be names, irrespective of our involvement or not.

The climate has changed so much that small business just can't afford these kinds of things anymore, so they either ignore them, or they go out of business, which in the long term is not good for the economy and the future of the country.

Yes, you can make a very strong case on legal grounds, and I am not a lawyer, and I understand that Toyota was at fault here, but no-one died, so can't one be rational and have a talk with them and make sure it does not happen again.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by dtt255

I do believe that I have some responsibility in this situation also. I should have double checked toyota's work and know better then to expect them to know EXACTLY what they were doing

I don't think suing them is the answer, but a very loud explanation to the service manager may be in order.

Yes, you should talk to them. Also, to be fair one can not expect every single technician at Toyota to be trained on the KDSS system on the 200 series. That is just not practical based on how many technicians will every see a 200, much less work on it.

What one should expect is for the dealer to have at least ONE tech dedicated to it and know the system. Have him then deal with these trucks when they come in.

[sleeoffroad]

Just for the record this is what dtt255 initially posted re the KDSS fix after the truck leaned and he took it to the dealer.

I am very lucky that I got a service guy and head tech who used to work at Lexus and have dealt with the AHC on the lexus vehicles and was familiar with these types of issues.

Well they hooked up the computer thingy to my LC and had the computer initiate a re-calibration of the suspension system and it freed everything up and we were all good!
Didn't cost me a thing and only took about an hour!

What exactly caused it, I don't know. I think with us pulling and stepping on the arms, etc. trying to free everything up, that we triggered something.

From this it is not even apparent that they loosened anything.

Just to be clear, I am not knocking dtt255 and I think he early work on the 200 will eventually help a lot of people and I also think it was the intent of this thread.

[arbforlc200]

Slee - I do see your point and feel for small business. If you remembered from his original post.....he stated that he could have died. Not being there, I see it as a near miss-hap that could have easily killed the driver+ passenger if the SUV rolled. Consumer Protection Law has come a long way and it is extremely nebulous and now it is considered an expertise field in itself. BTW, everyone will say now that a lawyer would be the last thing on his/her mind....until an injury or death occurs.....lawyers phone will be ringing off the hook. It's TRUE!

I was just raising awareness to everyone...both to consumers and distributors. I love the way your products look and from web reading....your reputation is solid. Perhaps I will be ordering a pair of sliders from you..but will not heavily mod my LC for simple reason that I stated earlier. More power to others who are willing to alter their vehicles.

[dtt255]

Ok lets put this bed already.

I mentioned the information so that everyone would know to check their valves anytime ANYONE did any suspension work.

My intention was not to start a BASH toyota thread.

[Michael Hanson]

Personal responsibility needs to start with the shop that is getting paid to do the work.If you can not except the risks but only the money ,that unethical.

[JBHorne]

Originally Posted by dtt255

Ok lets put this bed already.

I mentioned the information so that everyone would know to check their valves anytime ANYONE did any suspension work.

My intention was not to start a BASH toyota thread.

+1

As much as I love law and legal debates, there were no damages here so let's just end it already.

DTT is safe and that's all that matters.

[timmer]

I think its so cool how after just a short period of time driving off road a persons awareness of his her vehicles handleing is so greatly enhanced.

timmer

[spressomon]

This experience does bring up a point regarding other countries not allowing either mods to a vehicle or mods performed by others that are not "registered/approved" installers/modders.

Its probably a good thing to NOT take for granted given how easy most mods are to perform by anyone with a few hand tools and written instructions. Handling/safety issues abound with improperly modded rigs and/or improperly installed equipment.

On the extreme we have all seen too many rigs (not necessarily Toyotas ) lifted WAY too high knowing the safe handling (normal and emergency situations) aspects of the highly altered vehicle have been thrown to the wind...

Ok...hyjack over...now you can return to your regularly scheduled program

[dtt255]

I agree with everything said here, but I do think the fact that is being forgotten is that, I did not touch my kdss valves. Nobody but toyota has touched the LC but me.

So either toyota loosened them to fix the issue I had when I put the coilovers in and never tightened them back up.......

OR

They were never tightened up and done correctly from the factory (which I doubt)

Either way, me putting my own coilovers in could NOT have forced the valves open, so either way, Toyota screwed up.

Like I mentioned before, I am not going after toyota BUT I will never take it back from the dealership without doing my best to double check everything that was done. To be honest, doing that is not a bad thing for anyone to do.

So for me it was a lesson learned.....never trust anyone when it is your life behind the wheel.

[arbforlc200]

I posted my response in the wrong thread....

Agreeing or not agreeing is not the issue here. What's unbelievable is the rationale put forth by some. How can this become a Toyota bashing? I drive a LC200, my wife drives a Lexus LS 460 which is another Toyota product and I bashed Toyota? And BTW, I am also a small business owner that is subject to the same rules and regulations of this country.

Does any one understand the difference between latent defect and patent defect? Most folks paid authorized dealers to perfom work and expect quality, safety and reliabilty to be the outcome of this process. What I don't need to do is to crawl underneath my LC 200 and re-inspect what my dealer had done. And even if I wanted to do so, what the !#@# am I looking for? So when either life, limb and/or pecuniary loss occurrs, sometime the only remdedy is to seek equity in the court system.

As for adding hardware onto your LC .... it's great if you at least try to understand the modes and effects on your LC prior to adding these after market hardware. Otherwise, just slapping them on does not impress me one bit. I have been there done that as a teenager. Now I expected that we have some how evolved more sophisticated than this.

[chimyz]

I had some suspension work done on the LC at an un-named toyota dealership here in Calgary, in the COUNTRY HILLS area (I'm still not telling which dealership though).

After driving 2500 miles accross country, and noticing there was some shimmy and extra noise, I started poking around the bottom of the vehicle. It appears they did not put a bolt back in that connects one of the links (something to stabalize lateral movement).

I thought it would be easy enough to pull into a dealership half way accross the country and have them order up the bolt...well to my surprise...2 month back order on the bolt, but the nut would only be 2 days and washer the next day.

I proceeded to call that dealership in Calgary and ask if they had it kicking around...nothing, and they knew nothing about it, but were willing to order the $30 special item for me.

This is just another example of how customer service, care and attention at the automotive dealerships have driven them into a desperate plea for billions to save their a$$e$. I think screw it!!! They need to learn a harsh lesson and re-invent or suffer.

I too am a small business owner, and have never even borrowed from a bank to get the business going. Care, attention and customer service is all I have over the next guy.

To sum up...F&^% Toyota and their dealerships, call me a Toyota basher if you want...they don't care, about me or you! All they care about is lining their own pockets. If the Federal Government wasn't so messed up too, I would just build my own vehicle, it's really not that hard.

Hijack over....check your vehicle after you leave any service.

[arbforlc200]

Fyi...Toyota is'nt the one asking for a bail out. Unfortunately...it is the US auto makers that are asking.

You maybe the exception, but for me I do not have time to crawl underneath my LC to re-inspect a job that I paid authorized dealer to perform. My time is reseverd is to take care of my business.

[Jonty]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

Fyi...Toyota is'nt the one asking for a bail out. Unfortunately...it is the US auto makers that are asking.

Toyota have laid off staff, cut production and asked for financial aid in Japan. No excuse for the mechanics not to do their job properly though.

[beno]

In the end, another good "moral of the story" situation to reinforce my firm belief in working on your own vehicle.

That said, I think the new 200 series might be too computerized for most shade trees to work on them beyond just basic wrench turning.

-o-

[chimyz]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

Fyi...Toyota is'nt the one asking for a bail out. Unfortunately...it is the US auto makers that are asking.

You maybe the exception, but for me I do not have time to crawl underneath my LC to re-inspect a job that I paid authorized dealer to perform. My time is reseverd is to take care of my business.

Toyota's credit rating just got knocked down...not sure if you heard that in the news? That is the beginning.

As for the exception, I had to crawl under the vehicle, being 2500 miles away from home and having my family with me, I did not want to loose any lives, and needed to find out the problem, to see if I could fix it until I got into a dealership.

The 5 minutes it took to inspect probably saved me minimum 2 hrs waiting at the dealership to redo a job that took them 5 hrs, or minimum 30 - 45 mins dropping it off and picking it up, that's not including calling in to book a time, and the 2 -3 days before I could get an appointment...you get my point about time.

Also...don't try and prove that your time is more valuable than others by saying you don't have time to inspect what someone has done to your car...in fact, you should be checking over your vehicle all the time, making sure it works correctly and safely.

The whole point of my friggen post was that you pay hundreds for some snot nosed, acne faced "tech" to perform work on a car at an "authorized dealer" and they DON'T!

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

Look Sh#@t for brains...(we can all started talking gutter language if you want !) Yes my time is very important where I can earn money using by brains and my clients demanded that I give them sound advice for big bucks!. Paying for service at an authorized dealer is a drop in a bucket and they have done a wonderful job for me so far. No complaint.

You must look and sound like an idiot whenever you visit your dealer and that is probably why they treated you like a piece of old used up TP + taking adavantage of you . Whenever I bring mine in, I get a comparable loaner for free.

I am through with your dumb AS#@#!!

Wow! I thought the 100 section was tough, but the 200 section is something else!

Interesting thread to say the least, and nothing beats working on, and thus fully understanding your own truck. As Beno alludes to, that may not be possible with the multiple, overlapping, and high complexity systems of the 200 series. I personally think this is just the start, and modifying future Land Cruisers will simply not be possible.

For dtt-did you do a thread discussing the coilovers? Curious why you used them and what you were trying to fix?

Disclaimer-I do not own a 200, but my brother does. Nice trucks.

[dtt255]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

Look Sh#@t for brains...(we can all started talking gutter language if you want !) Yes my time is very important where I can earn money using by brains and my clients demanded that I give them sound advice for big bucks!. Paying for service at an authorized dealer is a drop in a bucket and they have done a wonderful job for me so far. No complaint.

You must look and sound like an idiot whenever you visit your dealer and that is probably why they treated you like a piece of old used up TP + taking adavantage of you . Whenever I bring mine in, I get a comparable loaner for free.

I am through with your dumb AS#@#!!

Ok no need for the language. I don't mind a disagreement...but cursing and name calling is not needed. Please try and control it from this point forward.

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Wow! I thought the 100 section was tough, but the 200 section is something else!

Interesting thread to say the least, and nothing beats working on, and thus fully understanding your own truck. As Beno alludes to, that may not be possible with the multiple, overlapping, and high complexity systems of the 200 series. I personally think this is just the start, and modifying future Land Cruisers will simply not be possible.

For dtt-did you do a thread discussing the coilovers? Curious why you used them and what you were trying to fix?

Disclaimer-I do not own a 200, but my brother does. Nice trucks.

I now understand the need / benefit of knowing how the systems work on my LC.

Well the LC came with coilovers to start so that is why I believe that Radflo made actual coilovers.

I know OME makes separate springs and shocks for the front. I know chimyz has them on the fronts. You might want to ask him in a new thread as to how he likes them and why he went to those form the radflo coilovers.

The computerized part of the truck is less intimating to me then the actual old school mechanicals

I got the rear OME springs and the new radflo shocks on the rear today. Gave me 2 3/4 inch life in the rear and then we raised the coilovers up for a 2 1/3 inch in the front.

WOW what a look and clearance difference. I am going to start a thread on it.

I am going to try and convince Chimyz to add his his info so we can compare.

[chimyz]

Originally Posted by arbforlc200

Look Sh#@t for brains...(we can all started talking gutter language if you want !) Yes my time is very important where I can earn money using by brains and my clients demanded that I give them sound advice for big bucks!. Paying for service at an authorized dealer is a drop in a bucket and they have done a wonderful job for me so far. No complaint.

You must look and sound like an idiot whenever you visit your dealer and that is probably why they treated you like a piece of old used up TP + taking adavantage of you . Whenever I bring mine in, I get a comparable loaner for free.

I am through with your dumb AS#@#!!

arbforlc...if the above was directed at me (and I'm assuming it is) thanks for the colourful language. Not sure why you brought the gutter talk into this, but that is lame...please read my original post, I didn't realize I used any gutter talk at all? I hope you don't talk to your mother the same way you talk to the rest of us.

Your comments were all uncalled for, simply written behind the safety of your computer in order to inflate your ego...I don't appreciate it, and I hope you have acheived the goal you needed and what you were looking for.

I'm glad you have a good working relationship with your dealership...that is very few and far between.

welcome to mud, and check the attitude at the door next time.

[arbforlc200]

perhaps my language was inapproriate for prime time and I had removed the content above. However, hiding behind a computer...is not my motto. It's o.k....you don't know me yet but hiding isn't me especially I have to be front and center in a public arena on a daily basis. If need be, I will provide you my full credentail if your request warrants.

I do check this board once in a while to learn about upgrades eventhough I am no hardcore offroaders like some folks here. I also admit that I do not work on cars anymore since it is getting more complicated and I like to spend time driving it to the slope. So I have to depend on the dealer to work on my rig....I hope you understand that. My hat off to you if you are able to perform all the fixing+maintenace of this complicated beast.

happy hollidays