IFS failures (for Mr. Schotts)

[dclee]

Here are two links from the 100sCool list (I hope Willem-Jan doesn't mind me posting this!). The first is a compilation of LOTS of emails on IFS complaints mainly from Australia. The second link shows actual photos of the failures (cracked t-bar housings on the arms).

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/100_ifs.txt

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/J10_IFS

[sleeoffroad]

Derek, one has to take this in context. Remember the Ausies also complained about the axle brackets cracking and breaking off on the 80 series axle when running ome caster bushings. They had to re-inforce those as well. Again something that we have hardly seen in the US. The only 80 one that I have seen crack was John Hocker's

[Landpimp]

its a right hand drive thing

(looking for wood to knock on)

John

[dclee]

Yes, I understand the conditions are not exactly the same (thousands of miles of corrugated roads in the Outback). Just thought it was interesting info.

How did John crack his brackets? Although he does seem to overload his truck a bit, heh...

[Aseif007]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/g.goulden/ramp/ramp.html


These pictures are interesting (although some of the vehicles aren’t stock), along with all the FACTAUL T-bar related failures I have been reading about. Is this something the 100 owners are going to dismiss as hearsay? I hope Toyota fixes this problem so that I can confidently buy one and take it off road in the future.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by dclee

Yes, I understand the conditions are not exactly the same (thousands of miles of corrugated roads in the Outback). Just thought it was interesting info.

How did John crack his brackets? Although he does seem to overload his truck a bit, heh...

No idea, we were doing a trail together in Az and the brackets just broke off the axle housing. Don't think it had to do with load. More repeated twisting.

[calamaridog]

How many of these IFS failures occured on vehicles which are routinely loaded over GVR then driven hard and long?

Is this a realistic question? Haven't read all the 100scool stuff yet...

[Aseif007]

I read most of their posts and they don;t say if the 100s were over loaded, but they probably were since Toyota is saying that there shouldn't be any problems with a stock setup. The people having problems have probably been used to overloading their other cruisers before, and modifying their suspension and being OK. Toyota will most likely fix whatever is failling if it is something that is a common occurance (I hope), but you guys here (USA) haven't been experiencing this have you? I am looking into them right now but I am holding off because of these problems. My roomate just got his dealer license and I can get one for a good price. I can wait though if this becomes a bigger problem.

[Bielecki]

Originally Posted by calamaridog

How many of these IFS failures occured on vehicles which are routinely loaded over GVR then driven hard and long?

Is this a realistic question? Haven't read all the 100scool stuff yet...

Here is one incident of a fairly new vehicle suffering this fate,

****
Heard of another today, near new, 5000km, one dirt trip to Flinders
from S.A, and A arm is cracked where they break, though not broken
yet. Standard unadjusted T bars, standard shocks.

They are sending me vehicle details, think we should start some sort
of data base maybe.

***

While I have not read the entire document, the idea I get is that it does not take alot of thrashing to see this failure. The common thread in vehicle setup seems to be the bull bar - although I'm unsure of the above. Overloading or not, it certainly points out a significant weakness in the front suspension.

At least there seems to be some time between cracking (rust developing in crack) and complete failure.

[Bielecki]

***
The front end won't "fall out", but you'll be forced to ride on the bump stop to seek help. As Craig has mentioned ARB / OME have released their beef up kit, but reading the little editorial on it in 4x4 Aust mag, even they aren't guaranteeing that it's going to prevent the problem occurring.

**

I would guess this is the same potential fix as this, http://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-cruisers/26430-bull-bar-12000lbs-winch-2004-100-questions-2.html.

[cruiser99]

I thought I would add that all the failure report I’ve seen are of the HDJ not the UZJ. It would be interesting to see what are the differences in the set up between the 2 models.

I don’t know (correct me if I’m wrong) of any 100 series in the US that works harder then mine but my truck’s C arms don’t show any signs of cracking. Not yet, at least. Not that I am not worried about it (just ran outside to the nearest tree).

[tabraha]

Originally Posted by Aseif007

http://www.users.bigpond.com/g.goulden/ramp/ramp.html


These pictures are interesting (although some of the vehicles aren’t stock), along with all the FACTAUL T-bar related failures I have been reading about. Is this something the 100 owners are going to dismiss as hearsay? I hope Toyota fixes this problem so that I can confidently buy one and take it off road in the future.

Honestly, I don't think I'm going to be concerned by it too much at the moment. The vehicles aren't an identical setup to UZJ100's we have here. Has anyone posted about this happening on our continent in a UZJ100? If so I will have cause to watch things closer but that's about it. Christo's thrashed his fairly good (LC t-bars on an LX) without issue and John wheels his fairly hard too without a-arm issues. Amando has done a fair amount of Moab in his without any mishap I believe. I don't know how hard they worked the stock t-bars but it sounds like John used his for some time cranked up hard before the HD bars were installed. I personally don't wheel stuff as hard as they do but I probably spend more time in the field off pavement (as much as anyone possibly can) and have no issues with either. I'm rarely extremely overloaded but usually do travel with a minimum of 200lbs (usually more) in cargo, and up to 800lbs of people on washboarded roads, timber trails, mud pits, and severely washed out powerline easements. That's on a regular (yes daily) basis which is supposedly one of the causes of this failure as well (extensive off-road use per ARB). Heck up until August I was a mile off of the paved road just to get to where I resided!

I really wouldn't allow this to sway your confidence in the 100. The vehicle has been in the US since 1998 and there just isn't a mound of data suggesting that there are problems with it here in the US; even under heavy usage.

[Cruiser4UGA]

I agree wholeheartedly with above post. I am not concerned about it at all. Hey, if there is real problem it might make me get creative and slip coil overs or a solid axle or something under there.

[Jim_Chow]

Originally Posted by tabraha

Honestly, I don't think I'm going to be concerned by it too much at the moment. The vehicles aren't an identical setup to UZJ100's we have here. Has anyone posted about this happening on our continent in a UZJ100? If so I will have cause to watch things closer but that's about it. Christo's thrashed his fairly good (LC t-bars on an LX) without issue and John wheels his fairly hard too without a-arm issues. Amando has done a fair amount of Moab in his without any mishap I believe. I don't know how hard they worked the stock t-bars but it sounds like John used his for some time cranked up hard before the HD bars were installed. I personally don't wheel stuff as hard as they do but I probably spend more time in the field off pavement (as much as anyone possibly can) and have no issues with either. I'm rarely extremely overloaded but usually do travel with a minimum of 200lbs (usually more) in cargo, and up to 800lbs of people on washboarded roads, timber trails, mud pits, and severely washed out powerline easements. That's on a regular (yes daily) basis which is supposedly one of the causes of this failure as well (extensive off-road use per ARB). Heck up until August I was a mile off of the paved road just to get to where I resided!

I really wouldn't allow this to sway your confidence in the 100. The vehicle has been in the US since 1998 and there just isn't a mound of data suggesting that there are problems with it here in the US; even under heavy usage.

I think it's the usage. To my understanding, in Oz, people have heavily-ladened vehicles (water tanks, spare fuel tanks, dual spare tires, sometimes pulling trailers) through the Outback. Speeds are high, too....imagine driving 60mph offroad for thousands of miles. The stuff most of us do here is much slower speed, and not nearly as many miles. Some of the rigs used overseas rarely see paved roads, and most are diesel (heavier engine). I think that's why Toyota still sells the LC78 for those same markets, as it has the live front axle.

[calamaridog]

I agree that 99.9% of LC and LX owners in the US need not worry about this IFS "problem". The rest of us can keep an eye on it, but I doubt it will become a problem. This would not affect my decision to buy at all, as other systems have much worse problems with strength and reliability.

For example, my best friend is a Border Patrol agent in AZ and he has destroyed the stock suspension in Tahoe, Expedition, Durango, Jeep, and Dodge 2500 vehicles within 5,000 miles of them entering service. His personal vehicle is now a 2001 Toyota Landcruiser. This is a guy who has had the opportunity to thrash everything Detroit has to offer. I am proud to say I converted him

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by dclee

Here are two links from the 100sCool list (I hope Willem-Jan doesn't mind me posting this!). The first is a compilation of LOTS of emails on IFS complaints mainly from Australia. The second link shows actual photos of the failures (cracked t-bar housings on the arms).

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/100_ifs.txt

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/J10_IFS

Spell my name correctly Derek!

Not sure why my name's on this thread?

I've been aware of this issue since the beginning, though I have little interest in it other than why just Australia.....or like Doron brought up, why HDJ and not UZJ?

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by Aseif007

http://www.users.bigpond.com/g.goulden/ramp/ramp.html


These pictures are interesting (although some of the vehicles aren’t stock), along with all the FACTAUL T-bar related failures I have been reading about. Is this something the 100 owners are going to dismiss as hearsay? I hope Toyota fixes this problem so that I can confidently buy one and take it off road in the future.

From what we UZJ owners know, Toyota doesn't have to fix anything so we can confidently take the truck off road now, or in the future. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Looking at the data we have so far to date, after 6 years of production UZJ100's, there isn't a more reliable new (or quasi-new) vehicle you could buy to take you off road nor for long range expedition travel.

And let me say one thing (strictly my opinion based on what I've observed from fellow Cruiserheads) about off-road and expedition travel:

I would totally prefer relying on the 100's CV joints ANY DAY, ANY TRIP over a live axle model. Which do you want to repair/fix in the middle of nowhere? Give me the CV over a birfield baby!

[cruiser99]

According to my understanding of mechanical designs; if it's a fatigue issue (the fatigue is my favorite theory), it's coming our way. I'll just take longer. If it’s not the fatigue but the rebound shock lifting the front end by cranking the T bars is pretty bad and this is what we do here in the US. At any rate Toyota USA would be much less understanding then their Australian counterparts.

I don't want to overstate this but broken C arm can have severe consequences.

Like I said before, I would like to understand the difference between the UZJ and the HDJ in order to asses if, here in the US, we have a potential problem.

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by cruiser99

According to my understanding of mechanical designs; if it's a fatigue issue (the fatigue is my favorite theory), it's coming our way. I'll just take longer. If it’s not the fatigue but the rebound shock lifting the front end by cranking the T bars is pretty bad and this is what we do here in the US. At any rate Toyota USA would be much less understanding then their Australian counterparts.

I don't want to overstate this but broken C arm can have severe consequences.

Like I said before, I would like to understand the difference between the UZJ and the HDJ in order to asses if, here in the US, we have a potential problem.

Ya, I'm with ya Doron. I think all we can do is keep an eye on this potential problem. If we see a crack develop we buy a new arm. Not a big deal to me.

While owners of other brand vehicles are replacing head gaskets, electrical items, engines, trannies, heck, pitching the whole rig at 100K miles, etc. etc., I sure don't mind buying a new $200 (or whatever the cost) arm for an otherwise ultra-reliaible rig.

[dclee]

Originally Posted by ShottsUZJ100

Spell my name correctly Derek!

Not sure why my name's on this thread?

I've been aware of this issue since the beginning, though I have little interest in it other than why just Australia.....or like Doron brought up, why HDJ and not UZJ?

Sorry about the mispelling, must have been too close to bedtime when I posted...

Anyway, I put your name on because you've been the most vehement defender of the 100 Series! Hehehe...

As to HDJ, I think one reason is because most people who actually use these trucks for their intended purpose in Oz tend to get diesels, as that's all that's the only fuel available when you're crossing thousands of miles of the Simpson Desert, etc.

Anyway, I understand that it's probably not an issue for most of us, who aren't carting around GVWR over thousands of miles of corrugations, but it does make for interesting reading, and shows that yes, IFS is not infallable!

See ya,

[dclee]

Originally Posted by cruiser99

Like I said before, I would like to understand the difference between the UZJ and the HDJ in order to asses if, here in the US, we have a potential problem.

I believe the T-bars are different between HDJ and UZJ, at least ARB's replacement bars are. Diesel bars are heavier. Has to do with the increased weight of the diesel "donk" (as the Aussies call it). So I would assume that the stock T-bars are also different. Not sure what other differences (if any) there would be in the suspensions of the two types. Can anyone from Oz pipe in?

Thanks,

[Jim_Chow]

Originally Posted by dclee

[snip]As to HDJ, I think one reason is because most people who actually use these trucks for their intended purpose in Oz tend to get diesels, as that's all that's the only fuel available when you're crossing thousands of miles of the Simpson Desert, etc.

[snip]
See ya,

Yep, and the HDJ gets much better fuel economy. In a UZJ, you'd have to carry like 100 gal of fuel vs. 25gal in the main tank and 40 gal in the rear tank for the HDJ. I think that's the bottom line reason. With all that extra gasoline you'd have to carry, you need jerry cans, and lots of them, which is even more weight (or tow a trailer full of gasoline?). I think I'd opt for a HDJ-78 "troopie" and have custom tanks underneath the two rows of rear bench seats that face each other (one for water, one for diesel).

If you have to drive a UZJ 1000 miles in between gas stations, what would you do? This is the achilles heel to an otherwise excellent vehicle. Oh, in the Paris-Dakar HDJ100, then had a large custom fuel tank in the interior (no back seats, of course) w/ a fill cap located high up on the left side of the vehicle.

[Bielecki]

Originally Posted by ShottsUZJ100

Ya, I'm with ya Doron. I think all we can do is keep an eye on this potential problem. If we see a crack develop we buy a new arm. Not a big deal to me.

While owners of other brand vehicles are replacing head gaskets, electrical items, engines, trannies, heck, pitching the whole rig at 100K miles, etc. etc., I sure don't mind buying a new $200 (or whatever the cost) arm for an otherwise ultra-reliaible rig.

I'm with cruiser99; it's definetly a fatigue issue and something I'd like to understand further since I'm not convinced it could not happen here. While the probability is really really low, the consequences are severe. Either way, it's just something to look out for, and is not discouraging me in my 100-series hunt. When I lift it and slap 35's under it, I'm going to install the bracing kit for whatever it is worth since it seemed to show a measureable difference in failure rate for the Oz mining crew as told on the 100scool email list.

Again, it's only like $80 and here's a quicker link to it, http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/gallery/heftymerv/abw.

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by dclee

Sorry about the mispelling, must have been too close to bedtime when I posted...

That's OK, just don't change the "O" to an "I".

[Aseif007]

I am still confident in the UZJ and I would still buy if the numbers are right. I am glad to hear that those of you that take your vehicles off road are not seeing these problems. Hopefully it is isolated to the HDJs.

[lizardking100]

I'm selling mine.