Toyota Dealership Oil Change & No Oil in the Motor

[tcb76cruzr]

So the fam and I are on vacation in Hilton Head and it's raining so I make an appointment at the local Toyota Dealership to get a oil change for my 99 Landcruiser. Takes about an hour and drive it back to our condo, about 20 miles, check the oil pressure gauge once and it seems normal. Later drive it to dinner, about 1 mile, then to Blockbuster, 1/2 mile, start to go home and the motor sounds like s--t and no power. Immediatly check gauge, nothing, and immediatly pull over, check dip stick and dry as a bone. The check engine light did not come on and it did not overheat. It is raining like hell, got a bit of a tropical storm yesterday, so do not investigate to much, but there is oil all over the lower front of the engine area, I think maybe leaking from the filter but it is tight. Leave the vehicle sit and get a ride to the condo. I sent the guy who waited on me at the dealership a email and will be calingl in the morning, he is the same guy who told me how 'awesome' there service was.

Question: Do not know the particulars yet of the lack of oil, but what should I be looking for from the dealership? How do they prove to me there is no damage to the motor?

[100 TD]

Originally Posted by tcb76cruzr

So the fam and I are on vacation in Hilton Head and it's raining so I make an appointment at the local Toyota Dealership to get a oil change for my 99 Landcruiser. Takes about an hour and drive it back to our condo, about 20 miles, check the oil pressure gauge once and it seems normal. Later drive it to dinner, about 1 mile, then to Blockbuster, 1/2 mile, start to go home and the motor sounds like s--t and no power. Immediatly check gauge, nothing, and immediatly pull over, check dip stick and dry as a bone. The check engine light did not come on and it did not overheat. It is raining like hell, got a bit of a tropical storm yesterday, so do not investigate to much, but there is oil all over the lower front of the engine area, I think maybe leaking from the filter but it is tight. Leave the vehicle sit and get a ride to the condo. I sent the guy who waited on me at the dealership a email and will be calingl in the morning, he is the same guy who told me how 'awesome' there service was.

Question: Do not know the particulars yet of the lack of oil, but what should I be looking for from the dealership? How do they prove to me there is no damage to the motor?

My 2 cents worth

You realised something was wrong by the different SOUND and lack of PERFORMANCE of your engine. You stopped in foul cold weather and checked the dipstick and found no oil on the dipstick.
Point 1
You observed LACK OF PERFORMANCE and INCREASED ENGINE NOISE
This, most likely, is due to no oil in the engine.
Point 2
You measured no oil on the dip stick of the engine.
This proves there is no oil in the engine which is measurable via the dipstick. They may say however, that their engine can run with low oil levels etc, this will be in lab conditions probably, so be very careful, in reality, it is cheaper for them to admit their fault straight up and give you a new engine, but they probably want to fight it out so you get some financial pain as well and may back down as they don't want a ruling against them.
If you engine has run without oil on the dipstick, then even though they may say "thats OK" then I would ask for a complete engine strip down by a mechanic of your choice and they pay for it, because in my opinion from your limited information, your engine is probably toast!

All my personal thoughts only, no advise given, please seek professional advise.

[dgangle]

I would say determine the particulars, as you put it. And this is going to need an in-person visit, not an email, phone call or message sent by pigeon.

If they forgot to put oil in it you wouldn't have made it 5 miles. Where did the oil go? Aside from things either crazy or not very probable there are only a couple options: burn it, oil filter gasket/sealing surface or the drain plug. #1 you are SOL. #2 wrong filter? old filter gasket stuck on and new filter installed on top? (don't laugh I did this once and put 5 qts on the garage floor in 5 min). #3 drain plug not tightened and came out.

In the end you are in a crappy position and going to have too deal with a situation not on your home turf. I would suggest not touching anything, having it towed to the same stealership and personally witness their investigation. If it is something they did or didn't do, it will be obvious and you both will know it.

Some vacation, hugh? Kinda makes you think it didn't need it changed that bad or should have done it yourself/gone someplace closer/cheaper.

I had a friend in high school who worked with his brother and dad at his dad's tire/brake/shock/oil change place. His dad framed and hung both his son's $2000+ "no charge" free engine replacement invoices right next to their ASE certificates. They have insurance for this kinda stuff.

Good luck and report back with updates.

[Joe Egolf]

I vote for stuck old gasket#1 . #2 would be x threaded plug?Have car towed to dealer, BE THERE to see and video/take pics of entire inspection as they remove filter , check plug etc etc.If they have insurance for this kinda stuff then i would ask for a new engine or a new car???heh heh

[e9999]

time to be serious: document, document, document. Pics, pics, and pics. Put everything in writing. Get statements from witnesses if possible. Be paranoid and be ready for a fight. Hopefully none of that will be necessary but if we're talking new engine, we're talking enough $$ to make some folks misbehave...

[Topmounter]

Definitely be professional and mature about it, gather the facts and present them. Make sure you are dealing with someone with the authority to solve the problem. If it starts to get out of hand at any point, escalate... escalate... escalate... don't get lured into a pi33ing match with some underling who is just trying to cover his arse. If you have a lawyer, then depending upon the initial discussion, it might be worth having him/her send a letter to the dealership on his letterhead summarizing the situation.

[SWUtah]

Lexus dealer did this to my wifes car in Atlanta. But they did not put oil in engine and the oil light and check engine light came on as I was pulling out of dealership. It had 90K miles on the car. At 120K miles the tail pipe started smoking on startup I traded it. Dealer paid for 90K service and warranted the engine for 30K miles. At the time it started smoking I lived in Springfield Missouri and did not want to drive to Atlanta and fight with them. But I did trade it into another Lexus dealership that did not know it was smoking at startup in the morning, at least when I traded it in . Document and have the service manager there when you guys look at what happened. You will need a new engine. Good luck and keep us posted.

[EdsCruisin]

It should be very quick and easy to see where the oil came from when it's on a lift. The filter may be tight because it is cross threaded and certainly not sealed at the gasket.

I would not go directly to the service department and let them try to cover themselves before the manager is involved. Tow it to the shop, go in and ask for the service manager and owner. You are driving a top end vehicle, have them treat you like a top end customer. In other words, set the tone that you mean business (in a professional way) and play it from there. I would have all of you go into the shop together and stand under that truck and see the same thing at the same time. Take pictures, document and then turn to the owner and ask, "What now? How are you going to make me whole?" If he says he will simply redo the oil change, decline and say you will take it to a shop authorized by your insurer and double check the damages. He has a fund for these types of mistakes, without involving insurance companies and/or the Toyota Corp. Always keep that threat in your back pocket.

Hilton Head is certainly not the place to be this weekend, but good luck.

[KLF]

All of these posts about "watch them and take pictures when it's up on the lift", you have to keep in mind that very few shops will let you into the service area, and definitely not under a vehicle up on the list. Insurance reasons.

[tcb76cruzr]

Thanks for all advice thus far.

Saturday morning I called the dealership, they were expecting me and gave me a phone number for a tow at their expense. When I pulled up to the dealership in the tow truck the service foreman was waiting in the parking lot. I told him what had happened, he said they would find the cause of the leak and go from there. I told him I was extremely concerned and wanted to see everything he finds, I had a cameracase on my waist and a camcordeer bag on my shoulder. 30 minutes later he finds me in the lobby, they had doubled up on the oil gasket. He said that he draine about a quart of oil out before refilling it. He told me he was going to run it for a while, drain the oil, and that we would inspect it together. About an hour later he finds me and we go back to shop, the oil is in a pan and the double casket oil filter is there. There is metal shavings in the oil and he says there is no way of telling if they are new or from the existing 98k miles on the motor. I voice my concerns and the opinion of my mechanic, 'demand a new motor', and he suggests that I take a Sienna home to TN and let him tear into the motor next week to assess the damage.

Very professional so far IMO. My concern is the assessment of damage to existing. I bought the truck 2 monthes and do not know if the 90k has been done. It was a lease and is extremely clean which tells me it was taken care of.

[Topmounter]

Good news then, it sounds like they are trying to do the right thing. Can you find out where it was serviced under warranty and get the records from that dealership? I was able to pull the entire service history for my LC from the servicing dealer prior to purchase. It wasn't clear though whether that is a dealer-specific database or whether Toyota collects that data and puts it in a national service database.

[SWUtah]

Sounds like they are taking responsiblity and will rebuild your engine. Keep us posted. P.S. if you have not had the timing belt and water pump changed yet this might be a good time.

[pint]

Good luck. I hope it all works out in your favor. This is exactly why I ALWAYS change my own oil! I had an Iroc Z Camaro back in the late 90's that I usually changed the oil in. I had Jiffy Lube do it twice. The 2nd time they didn't put oil in the engine and it was toast within 3 miles! Fortunately they stepped up immediately and bought a new engine.

[dgangle]

Originally Posted by KLF

... you have to keep in mind that very few shops will let you into the service area, and definitely not under a vehicle up on the list. Insurance reasons.

That's a CYA to keep PIA customers away from the mechanics. They are flat rate and generally speaking don't appreciate the interruptions. Under these circumstances, accompanied by the service/stealership management and with the right attitude, this would hardly be considered inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Topmounter

...Can you find out where it was serviced under warranty and get the records from that dealership? I was able to pull the entire service history for my LC from the servicing dealer prior to purchase. It wasn't clear though whether that is a dealer-specific database or whether Toyota collects that data and puts it in a national service database.

I fail to see what relevance this has in this situation. In showing how wonderful one had their baby maintained supposed to influence another dealership's decision on how to best handle this situation? And the answer to your question is no, the records are dealer specific.

One argument you may need to prepare yourself for is they may say since your truck has 100K on it and is ~1/2 wore out, they may only initially offer to pay 1/2 of the rebuild. Or they pay labor, you pay parts. Not to sound like a pessimist but I hardly think they are just going to completely roll over and give you a free new engine. Unless they have zero negotiating skills, don't be surprised if they want some type of concession your part as well.

[2000 LX 470]

Originally Posted by dgangle

That's a CYA to keep PIA customers away from the mechanics. They are flat rate and generally speaking don't appreciate the interruptions. Under these circumstances, accompanied by the service/stealership management and with the right attitude, this would hardly be considered inappropriate.



I fail to see what relevance this has in this situation. In showing how wonderful one had their baby maintained supposed to influence another dealership's decision on how to best handle this situation? And the answer to your question is no, the records are dealer specific.

One argument you may need to prepare yourself for is they may say since your truck has 100K on it and is ~1/2 wore out, they may only initially offer to pay 1/2 of the rebuild. Or they pay labor, you pay parts. Not to sound like a pessimist but I hardly think they are just going to completely roll over and give you a free new engine. Unless they have zero negotiating skills, don't be surprised if they want some type of concession your part as well.

Not sure I agree on your last point. I for one expect my motor to go > 200K mi. Under your thought process if he had 200K mi on it now they wouldn't need to cover anything since it was about "worn out". They botched it, and they're responsible, and it does sound like they're doing they right thing. I think if you keep it professional and positive, you'll come to an agreement. Let us know.

Just my .02--

[dgangle]

Originally Posted by 2000 LX 470

Not sure I agree on your last point. I for one expect my motor to go > 200K mi. Under your thought process if he had 200K mi on it now they wouldn't need to cover anything since it was about "worn out"...

I am simply posing a hypothetical situation. You fill in your own numbers. As a counterpoint, if one had 200K (or XXX miles) the stealership could argue that it has served it's usefull life and limit their exposure to installing a used 200K engine. Ever heard of a pro-rated tire or battery?

Originally Posted by 2000 LX 470

...They botched it, and they're responsible, and it does sound like they're doing they right thing....

Yes, sounds like it thus far but their determination/offer of remedy has not yet been stated. Unless they have ZERO negotiating skills, it most likely ain't going to be all creampuffs and butterflies.

Not arguing, simply stating a situation to be prepared for. They may simply man-up, replace it, file to insurance and move on.

[Topmounter]

re: Service records... You want ammunition to head off any of their attempts to shirk responsibility. Showing that the vehicle was regularly serviced at an authorized dealer with no preexisting conditions would help counter an assertion that they are just a victim of bad timing.

Is it definitive? No, of course not, but it certainly can't hurt.

[dgangle]

Originally Posted by Topmounter

re: Service records... You want ammunition to head off any of their attempts to shirk responsibility. Showing that the vehicle was regularly serviced at an authorized dealer with no preexisting conditions would help counter an assertion that they are just a victim of bad timing.

Is it definitive? No, of course not, but it certainly can't hurt.

I see your point. In any situation, what I try to do is look at from the various points of view.

To the service manager's eyes: He doesn't give a sh&t whether this poor guy ever changed his oil. He's got poo poo on his hands, realizes it and all he is thinking about is how to get it off. And to minimize the amount of his personal blood loss during the process.

To the owner of that particular stealership, this owner didn't buy his vehicle there, prior to this debacle never had it serviced there and due the fact that he lives 500 miles away probably will never spend a dime there again, even if they give him a new engine, a free loaner and an apology. As a businessperson, he wants to make this problem go away and certainly minimize the damage in doing so.

Understanding where everyone is coming from can help one steer the situation to their desired outcome and also understand what is realistically possible to happen. They will pay up. It's just a matter of how much.

[scottm]

My '97 was double-gasketted on it's first oil change, dealer put a new engine in it. More recently, my '03 had the oil filled two inches above the full mark by the dealer http://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series-c...vice-help.html. My faith in dealers remains low.

[Topmounter]

My primary focus in this situation would be to build an ironclad case with as little wiggle-room as possible.

Typically I'd start a separate thread on this topic on most forums since this is a general pet peeve, but I believe it would get mod'd here due to its lack of technical merit... While it was brilliantly clever the first time I saw it on my local dial-up BBS, do we really need to go out of our way to say "stealership" every single time a "dealership" is referenced? I've had great experiences with three different Toyota service departments since the beginning of the year. I have the same gripe about people who go out of there way to type Micro$oft every time they reference Microsoft (and I use a Mac, so it's not a fanboy thing).

[dgangle]

Lighten up.

Now if we REALLY want to get off topic, how about this one......

IME there are only two instances to ever go any STEALERSHIP. They are the day you finalize the deal/drive your new vehicle home and the other is to fix warranty/recall issues. Otherwise, absolutely no reason at all. All other needs can be met satisfactorily closer, quicker and more economically.

Man, I don't know if I like the way this thread is going.

[Topmounter]

It's just a question... if it is necessary, then so be it.

[BMWSTOY]

I say they fix it or buy it - I know I would not have anything to do with them paying only 1/2 and I really hope you are not faced with that.

It sounds like they know they have to do the right thing and I have faith that they will. I am hoping for you.

I am not sure that they can prove that they did not harm the engine more that the miles, but I would want total proof or warranty for as long as you own the thing.

[tcb76cruzr]

Thanks for your input and advise thus far.

Busy as hell today, moving today and in the morning and closing on the house at 2 PM. Doing whatever it takes to dump this house, it's hell to sell a house in this economony. Fortunately the Sienna is proving to be a better vehicle for our current situation but I miss the LC.

Anyone want a 83 BJ42, really rusty, but all there, my wife is drivin me crazy, looks like I have to let it go.

The service manager called me this morning, the service foreman pulled the valve cover and they are saying no damage. SM said next step was pulling the engine and removing the oil pan, easier to pull the engine then the whole front end. Their going to send pictures of the particulars (crank and bearings) and Assess. I want to post but may need your input, have not done that yet on this Forum.

Very professional IMO so far. HHI off island has become very upscale in the last 7 years due to Del Sun City and they want to keep their rep. Thanks agian.

[SWUtah]

Originally Posted by tcb76cruzr

Thanks for your input and advise thus far.

Busy as hell today, moving today and in the morning and closing on the house at 2 PM. Doing whatever it takes to dump this house, it's hell to sell a house in this economony. Fortunately the Sienna is proving to be a better vehicle for our current situation but I miss the LC.

Anyone want a 83 BJ42, really rusty, but all there, my wife is drivin me crazy, looks like I have to let it go.

The service manager called me this morning, the service foreman pulled the valve cover and they are saying no damage. SM said next step was pulling the engine and removing the oil pan, easier to pull the engine then the whole front end. Their going to send pictures of the particulars (crank and bearings) and Assess. I want to post but may need your input, have not done that yet on this Forum.

Very professional IMO so far. HHI off island has become very upscale in the last 7 years due to Del Sun City and they want to keep their rep. Thanks agian.

They need to put the pistons and check the rings since running without oil will cause increased wear. At this point they need to just go ahead and do a complete rebuild. Running without oil caused increased wear and they can't deny that. If they do nothing your engine will start smoking at start up within 30K miles. At the least you want a engine rebuild warranty from them if your LC starts to smoke at startup within the next 30K miles.