Fuel Additives, 2 Stroke Oil in V8

[rondoggnuts]

So my last tank from full to empty, I pump 21.6 gallons to return it to full, and I had 256 miles on the trip ODO. I haven't had her long and am still getting all maintenance done, but 11.85 mpg seemed pretty low to me for mixed city/hwy driving, maybe 70/30 respectively. Granted, I've been running her pretty hard after the oil is at operating temp. Why? Well because I'm running a bottle of an engine cleaner called Auto-rx, and some believe that it may clean better if you run it hard. So anyway, at the time I figured the sub-12 mpg was explained.

Okay, so back to when I pumped the 21.6 gallons, I actually added the rest of a pint of Walmart Supertech TC-W3 2 Cycle oil, which was a little more than 4 oz. I'm currently at about 170 on the trip ODO and the needle is about exactly on 1/2 tank. At this rate I should get closer to 15 mpg, but I admit that I did make a 25 mile freeway run and back. I know this isn't exactly a scientific approach to test mileage, and I'm not claiming any improvement just yet. But it got me to thinking what you guys add to your gas.

I'm aware of the cleaning products and I've used several (Regane, Techron, BG 44k are all great), but what do you guys think about top end lube? Anyone use anything that has shown a remarkable improvement? What do you think about the 2 Cycle oil at, say, 600:1 in our 4.7 V8?

[SWUtah]

Originally Posted by rondoggnuts

So my last tank from full to empty, I pump 21.6 gallons to return it to full, and I had 256 miles on the trip ODO. I haven't had her long and am still getting all maintenance done, but 11.85 mpg seemed pretty low to me for mixed city/hwy driving, maybe 70/30 respectively. Granted, I've been running her pretty hard after the oil is at operating temp. Why? Well because I'm running a bottle of an engine cleaner called Auto-rx, and some believe that it may clean better if you run it hard. So anyway, at the time I figured the sub-12 mpg was explained.

Okay, so back to when I pumped the 21.6 gallons, I actually added the rest of a pint of Walmart Supertech TC-W3 2 Cycle oil, which was a little more than 4 oz. I'm currently at about 170 on the trip ODO and the needle is about exactly on 1/2 tank. At this rate I should get closer to 15 mpg, but I admit that I did make a 25 mile freeway run and back. I know this isn't exactly a scientific approach to test mileage, and I'm not claiming any improvement just yet. But it got me to thinking what you guys add to your gas.

I'm aware of the cleaning products and I've used several (Regane, Techron, BG 44k are all great), but what do you guys think about top end lube? Anyone use anything that has shown a remarkable improvement? What do you think about the 2 Cycle oil at, say, 600:1 in our 4.7 V8?

I think your wasting your money and might damage your engine. Just go to the Top Tier Gasoline site and use one of the brands recommended by Toyota. If you keep putting that crap in your tank you might be one of the first members ever to have to change your fuel filter on your LC

[rondoggnuts]

Originally Posted by SWUtah

I think your wasting your money and might damage your engine. Just go to the Top Tier Gasoline site and use one of the brands recommended by Toyota. If you keep putting that **** in your tank you might be one of the first members ever to have to change your fuel filter on your LC

I appreciate the interesting feedback. You are actually the first person I have ever heard that would recommend against using it. 2 Cycle oil gets widespread approval on BITOG, I just wanted to see what the folks here have experienced with it in our specific engine. Keep in mind, we're talking a miniscule ratio, no more than 500:1 is generally recommended, so less than 5-6 oz per tank. And at <$10 per gallon, it's cheap, too.

[SWUtah]

Originally Posted by rondoggnuts

I appreciate the interesting feedback. You are actually the first person I have ever heard that would recommend against using it. 2 Cycle oil gets widespread approval on BITOG, I just wanted to see what the folks here have experienced with it in our specific engine. Keep in mind, we're talking a miniscule ratio, no more than 500:1 is generally recommended, so less than 5-6 oz per tank. And at <$10 per gallon, it's cheap, too.

I read BITOG, been on it for 7 years. I'm sure you have noticed that the 4.7 Toyota engine in oil analysis is one of the cleanest and easiest on oil. It's just a great engine and if you just use the right gas with the recommended additives will never have a fuel issue. So what you are doing I consider risk without any reward. So why do it??? Not saying that you are wrong, I don't know, just saying why take any risk for no reward?

[rondoggnuts]

Well actually, there is potential for reward in my mind. e.g. better gas mileage, smoother idle, less wear, etc. I'm not claiming these as definite results, but I'd certainly consider them as potential rewards. And I've never been made aware of significant risk with running 2C oil, but I haven't been on bitog for 7 years either. But I can say that I've read TONS of threads, and no one has brought this potential danger to my attention. Are you suggesting that perhaps only the "crazies" hang out in the fuel add section of that board and those who know better simply steer clear? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I think it's a valid question. Maybe I've been misinformed.

[SWUtah]

Originally Posted by rondoggnuts

Well actually, there is potential for reward in my mind. e.g. better gas mileage, smoother idle, less wear, etc. I'm not claiming these as definite results, but I'd certainly consider them as potential rewards. And I've never been made aware of significant risk with running 2C oil, but I haven't been on bitog for 7 years either. But I can say that I've read TONS of threads, and no one has brought this potential danger to my attention. Are you suggesting that perhaps only the "crazies" hang out in the fuel add section of that board and those who know better simply steer clear? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I think it's a valid question. Maybe I've been misinformed.

We just have different perspectives. I don't see a problem with the 100 series fuel system and everyone on this board gets about the same crappy mpg no matter what they do. Let us know if the oil helps your mpg.

[NMuzj100]

I have seen very little little support for two cycle oil in car engines at BITOG. The knowledgeable posters there only consistently recommend a polyamine based fuel additive ( techron, regane, ect..). And these they don't recommend at a greater than recommended frequency. You will hear this from them , "If you insist on burning something in your engine that is not intended for your engine, then at least use 2-cycle oil since it is designed to burn and mix with fuel."

A well treated 4.7L has very little room for improvement in reliability and probably in efficiency too. 2-stroke engines are quite inefficient, run rough and smoke like the devil. Why would adding an oil intended for them to the fuel of a 4-stroke EFI V8 create all the opposite effects.

I changed my fuel filter at approximately 100k and was glad I did. Lots of accumulated silt with the consistency of fine clay or talcum powder when dry.

[rondoggnuts]

I have to wonder what qualifies someone as "knowledgeable" on bitog, as most posters that make statements of fact (or even opinion) seem to think they fall into that category. I agree that there's no disputing that using products with PEA is a good idea, but I clearly need to do some more research on the other types of fuel additives.

Just so I'm clear on why you guys think the 2 cycle oil is a bad idea, let me recap:
1) Can damage engine
2) Can damage fuel system
3) Likely little or no benefits (at least in the 4.7)

Is this correct?

I think the natural response of someone typical would be to defend their position since it is what they use. Some people even falsely create "benefits" that they supposedly "experienced" with whatever product they are advocating. I'm not here to do that. My objectives are to learn and to do what is best for my cruiser. I try to be as objective as possible and exercise plenty of skepticism when appropriate. With that said, I again appreciate your guys' input, as all information will help me draw better conclusions. That's what makes these boards so great.

[Travis351]

I agree with the top tier comments. At nearly 200,000 miles, I have never run any additional cleaners or oils in my gas, nor changed the fuel filter and I average over 16MPG. I think the biggest detriment to your mileage is "running her hard." I don't know about the damage questions, but I can't imagine any benefits from additives, since mine (and countless others) are doing so well without them.

[LXPearl]

I agree with the top tier comments also. Instead of spending money on fuel additives, a more effective use of funds would be to use quality synthetics for the fluids. Mobil 1 and Redline seem to do great in the Toyotas. I have converted drive train fluids, ATF, and oil to full synthetics. Not much impact on mpg that I noticed, but I expect better longevity and performance in all sorts of conditions.

I doubt the 2c oil will do any drastic harm, but I also doubt it will benefit, and may affect the way the 100 runs via the computer settings and optimizations. The 4.7L engine will run OK on 87 octane also, but the ECU memory takes longer by design to adjust back to the 91 octane gas. I have not noticed pinging on 87, but I have noticed that the cruise control downshifts more often in hilly terrain (same route used)when using 87. Since noticing that, I have stayed with a top tier 91+ octane, and avoid non-approved additives. The Toyota dealer used the Redline fuel system cleaner, so I have used it, and sometimes Regane and Techron.

[NMuzj100]

FYI - Redline fuel system cleaner is a PEA product with the same active ingredient as Techron and Regane.

[Buckru]

Auto RX is a good product and will do what it states. I have used it in my 80 series and on another vehicle with signs of oil sludge. The reason was to run it through with conventional oil to clean any potential buildup before switching over to synthetic.

I also run a bottle of redline fuel system cleaner every 10k miles just to keep the injectors flowing well. When I did a hg job on my truck I sent the injectors off for balancing and cleaning at 187k miles. All six looked great. I can't say for sure whether it is top tier gas or the combination of both that kept the injectors clean, I just know what I will continue to do in hopes of consistently similar results.

Buck

[Texasoil]

Adding 2 stroke oil (or any oil) to gasoline can significantly lower the octane rating. It can even cause pre-ignition and engine destruction, especially at high speeds/loads.

Top Tier gasolines contain all the detergents and upper cylinder lubricants you need.

FWIW, I used to teach technicians how to measure fuel quality and operate and maintain octane rating engines. And I worked in developing gasoline additive formulations.

[rondoggnuts]

Originally Posted by Texasoil

Adding 2 stroke oil (or any oil) to gasoline can significantly lower the octane rating. It can even cause pre-ignition and engine destruction, especially at high speeds/loads.

Top Tier gasolines contain all the detergents and upper cylinder lubricants you need.

FWIW, I used to teach technicians how to measure fuel quality and operate and maintain octane rating engines. And I worked in developing gasoline additive formulations.

Really? At such incredibly low concentrations? I'm no expert, and I can see your point if we were talking about using way too much, but again, I'm talking minuscule amounts. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and please explain if you would be so kind.

I can see the potential problem with perhaps the fuel system, injectors, or the cat. But even then, I would think it would take very long term use to do any damage, if any.

Some popular "cleaners" contain oil as well, including Redline SI-1, Lucas UCL, MMO, etc. Many people have used products like these for 10+ years at the recommended dose, and I have never heard of any problems caused by such products. This doesn't mean it hasn't happened, only that I haven't heard of it.

Remember, I'm talking about a TC-W3 oil, which is ashless. I am also talking about a very low concentration, which equates to maybe 5 ounces per tank of 24 gallons.

And again, why does everyone seem to approve of the Redline when it too contains lubricating oil. I don't know the concentration, but a 15 oz bottle may have 30% oil. And if we suppose that you add the entire 15 oz bottle to your tank, the oil content would equal the amount of oil that I added.

[SWUtah]

Originally Posted by rondoggnuts

Really? At such incredibly low concentrations? I'm no expert, and I can see your point if we were talking about using way too much, but again, I'm talking minuscule amounts. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and please explain if you would be so kind.

I can see the potential problem with perhaps the fuel system, injectors, or the cat. But even then, I would think it would take very long term use to do any damage, if any.

Some popular "cleaners" contain oil as well, including Redline SI-1, Lucas UCL, MMO, etc. Many people have used products like these for 10+ years at the recommended dose, and I have never heard of any problems caused by such products. This doesn't mean it hasn't happened, only that I haven't heard of it.

Remember, I'm talking about a TC-W3 oil, which is ashless. I am also talking about a very low concentration, which equates to maybe 5 ounces per tank of 24 gallons.

And again, why does everyone seem to approve of the Redline when it too contains lubricating oil. I don't know the concentration, but a 15 oz bottle may have 30% oil. And if we suppose that you add the entire 15 oz bottle to your tank, the oil content would equal the amount of oil that I added.

You logic is flawed. In this post you are saying that you can see that what you are doing has the potential to damage your engine. Why would you want to play games with your engine when you can just go to the local top tier rated gas station and get what your engine needs to run on with no problems? Smoking takes a long time to kill most people and it does degrade their performance but it is addicting so I understand why it is hard for some to quit but adding oil to your gas tank should not be a hard habit to break

[rondoggnuts]

My fault, I wasn't very clear. I was simply contrasting what I felt may be a potential legitimate argument with what the previous post said about octane. But just because an argument may be valid, it doesn't make it sound (or true). If you noticed, I said "if any," so that should indicate that I don't necessarily agree that damage is certain. So my logic isn't flawed.

On the other hand, your logic is flawed, in my opinion. You say that I shouldn't mess with something that is "just fine" according to you. But if the world thought this way, how would we ever progress? Why should someone take vitamin supplements if they are "just fine" with their current diet? Why should the pharmaceutical industry experiment with new drugs when current drugs seem to be "just fine" for certain symptoms?

I'm not just experimenting on my own, I've read tons about this before even attempting. But I also understand that every vehicle/engine responds differently, so I wanted to see what the folks here had to say. I'm taking everything into consideration, and the opinions in this thread are no exception. But when people say things like, "if it ain't broke, don't mess with it," that doesn't really give me a whole lot to work with.

[D'Animal]

Adding two cycle mix oil at the ratio you are talking about will have no effect on your mileage.

There are more than a couple of Two Cycle oils.

1. 2Cycle oils that are designed for lower RPM engines such as lawn mowers and boat motors are a low ash type oil.

2. 2Cycle oils that are designed for lower RPM engines in boat motors are suppose to disipate in the water and not leave an oily film.

In both cases of #1 and #2 the oils are designed for low RPM motors.

3. Most that are designed for high RPM engines such as lawn and garden equipment and chainsaws are not a low ash oil and are designed for high RPM. Some of these engines run 15,000rpm. They have base stock, neutral stock, bright stock and esters in them to prevent scuffing as well as rust inhibitors. All lof this will no way help your mileage on a 6,000lb rig regardless of the ratio.

[rondoggnuts]

When you describe what a certain 2 cycle oil is designed for, it doesn't necessarily follow that they can't possibly be useful for other applications. A toothbrush is designed for teeth, but you can use it ... you get the point. Many have claimed positive results from various additives in low concentrations, whether it be in mpg, smoothness, acceleration, or whatever. Of course, I don't have any proof. If I did, I likely wouldn't be asking about it in the first place. And by the way, I was only referring to a TC-W3 oil, which appears to be #2 in your post.

[D'Animal]

I run 50:1 STIHL Ultra in everything I except my company truck and wifes DD. Everything is five or 6 other rigs. I ahve to clean the soot off the plugs about once a year.

[NMuzj100]

Originally Posted by rondoggnuts

Why should someone take vitamin supplements if they are "just fine" with their current diet? Why should the pharmaceutical industry experiment with new drugs when current drugs seem to be "just fine" for certain symptoms?

Interesting examples that could be the start of a very long chat thread.

Originally Posted by rondoggnuts

when people say things like, "if it ain't broke, don't mess with it," that doesn't really give me a whole lot to work with.

I think a lot of good info has been provided by multiple posters. Most of it does not support additives but if you don't agree or just want to see if the conventional wisdom is wrong then do it and provide a report on how it's working.

[NMuzj100]

Originally Posted by D'Animal

I run 50:1 STIHL Ultra in everything I except my company truck and wifes DD. Everything is five or 6 other rigs. I have to clean the soot off the plugs about once a year.

So are you pro-additives or is this a "learn from my mistake" ?

[D'Animal]

Originally Posted by NMuzj100

So are you pro-additives or is this a "learn from my mistake" ?

I travel a lot for a living and found it easier to put premix in all of my gas cans. When the wife uses handheld equipment, she can grab any can and use it. When the fuel get 45day - 60 days old I dump it in one of my rigs and get fresh.