100 series vs. 4runner drivetrain

[FirstToy]

I can't crawl under a stock 100 either. The 4Runner is lower stock but that isn't a criteria for it's capability.
Great trucks are built by their owners not the factory. The 4Runner is a high quality platform at a terrific value.

For example, a quality buildup by Joel Sincity 4Runner
can you build a 100 like this? Nope.

[Trunk Monkey]

Originally Posted by FirstToy

can you build a 100 like this? Nope.

Sure you can, all it takes is money.

[Jim_Chow]

(1) The 4th gen 4runner's 5spd tranny has aluminum planetary gears vs. the LC's steel gears. The aluminum gears saved 200 lbs. No word on the long-term durability yet.

(2) The 4Rnr's center diff is a torsion type. Still, I managed to get it stuck in some pretty easy (flat, soft, dry dirt from a large vehicle's tire tracks) and had to lock the center diff to get out. IMHO, the torsion diff doesn't buy any extra offroad performance, and traction control didn't get me out. Ground clearance is a joke.

(3) In terms of the suspension, Toyota got rid of the time-tested inner/outer bearing & hub construction for the front axle found on the 60/70/80/90/100 series and toyota minis (and probably 40 series?). Instead, there's a single pressed in sealed bearing in which the entire bearing and thing it's pressed into is replaced. Of course, the 30K repack requirement is no longer, either. It's just part of the trend of speeding up dealer service times and reducing ownership costs in the first 100K mi at the expense of extra costs < 100K mi. Since the FJC uses the 120 chassis, it would have the same construction. The 1st gen 4Rnr chassis design is still used on the Toyota hilux TD pickups overseas. I've seen them haul ~4000 lbs of hogs in steel cages stacked 10 ft high in Thailand using 9 leaf spring packs (these were mostly 2WD Toyota hilux diesel minis), so the frames were strong enough for this for daily use on/off pavement.

The general trend for Toyota is, the newer the vehicle design, the larger the body/interior space, better on-road performance & comfort (bigger engine, cushier seats, power everything) at the cost of offroad-worthiness (e.g., less ground clearance, big aluminum wheels vs. smaller steelies, IFS over live axle, etc.), fewer vehicle parts (meaning you have to buy an entire unit of several parts even if you only need one part, like window trim that only comes w/ the window unit) to save costs as the expense of long-term owners, more cost.

BTW, the latest thing toyota is doing is integrating the ECU's into boxes. For example, on the new CRown luxury sedan, instead of having 150 or so separate ECU's spread around the vehicle, there are only 4 ECU units. So if something goes wrong, I guess you have to replace the entire unit for thousands of $$$$ instead of $500 for a single ECU. All this for reducing production and warehousing costs at the expense of the buyer.

Still, I have driven a 4th gen V6 4Rnr SR5 4x4 and did find it very enjoyable. Fuel economy wasn't much better than on my 100 (20 mpg hwy on 87 oct vs. 19+ mpg on 91). The 100 is certainly built heavier, feels like you're driving a tank. For a DD, the 4Rnr is good for the peppier performance and smaller maneuvering size. I've found that the main limitation to the 100 offroad, even on easy terrain, is its width. Roads where trees will be brushing the sides of the 100 would be a cake walk for my old 4Rnr due to the 1 ft less width.

[Jim_Chow]

Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey

Sure you can, all it takes is money.

x2. Given enough money, almost anything can be done short of building the Starship Enterprise. And if money weren't a factor, you could mod a 100 w/ a SAS like Slee, or just import an international spec 105 series w/ 5spd manual and go through all the hoops of changing all the glass, adding airbags, lights, etc., then add a 4" 80-series lift w/ 35's.

[FirstToy]

dollar for dollar you can't do the same mods on a 100. Go ahead and try to put a long travel, coilover suspension on the 100. Tell me how that works out compared to the basically bolt-on installation on the 4Runner.
The 4Runner enjoys the advantages of cross-platform compatibility with a large array of suspension/mechanical upgrades.

I like the 100 but I don't feel the need to poo-poo the fantastic 4Runner to do it. And for the money, it's impossible to critique it that way.

[1loudLX]

I would take either really, that 4R is sick I wish I knew it was in vegas when i was there last weekend.

[Nsingh85]

Hi Guys,

Just a confirmation, is the 4Runner a Prado (120 series) or is it the Surf. (This is outside the states)
I live in Kenya and have seen the performance of all the 3 models. Though that id just confirm before i add to the thread

Cheers

[1loudLX]

its the surf

[Nsingh85]

Thanks Loud,

Thought so, but i was not sure.
The 4runner is not a very popular vehicle here, it was introduced some time back, but after a year or so, people changed back to the 100, 120 and 90 series.
Majority of the cruisers that are used offroad here belong to the UN, and are usually sent to Dafur (Sudan), Somalia and East
Africa. I can say that their fleet consists of 80% 100 series, but the 105 with the live axle and the rest is the 120 series.
The 120's are used by the management of UN, but when it comes to the rough stuff, the 105 are sent out. (The cars will be out of station for a good 2-3 months before they return)
I read someone mentioning about all the electronic goodies that are in the 4runner and not in the 100 series.
Here in Kenya, preference would be to the least of electronics in the car. Mechanical is the way to go. Thus the 105's. They are completely basic, that is they do not even have carpeting. The only electronics in it is the EFI system.
They are much cheaper to modify than the IFS, and are a simpler system.
When it comes to AHC, i think mine is one of the only cars that has it, (which will be scrapped within the next month or so). Toyota Kenya, does not even stock the service kit for this system, and they do not recomend it for this part of the world.
The 100 and 120 is a much sterdier car and can handle alot more offroad than the 4runners.
The UN had bought some 4runners, but i think they got rid of them within 6 months, and reverted back to the 100's.
From personal experiance, we had a 4runner which used to go to the mines in Tanzania and after about 5 trips (about 5000kms in total) we had to get rid of the car.
We currently have an 80's (owned for 1 year) that is doing the run, and besides burst tyres and broken rims, the car lc is going strong (just for informations sake, we have gone through about 2 sets of steel rims).
I have done the trip in my 100 series twice and the car is still perfect.
The same mine that i went to had ordered some Nissan Hardbody pick up trucks, but they sold them after the first 10,000 kms and went back to the trusty 100's.
The 80 and the 105 are the true cars for Africa
Thats my $0.02

Cheers!!

[hoser]

I think there are different ideas of what "Heavy Duty" means. Some define it with performance factors such as towing capacity, brake size, torsional strength of the frame, etc. If this the case, then the Tundra/Sequoia is the heaviest duty of all Toyotas in the US.

Others define heavy duty with regards to longevity, durability and the ability to take abuse on a day to day basis as if their livelihood relied on it. A 1985 70 series might be "technologically weak" compared to a new 4Runner. It has a frame with 23 year old technology, small brakes (with drums brakes in the rear) and couldn't tow 3500 lbs on a good day but I would bet it would take more abuse, survive more industrial work and go the distance more so than the 4Runner.

Toyota has their Land Cruiser line classified into three categories. Heavy duty, Wagon Type and Light Duty. From my understanding, the 4Runner is very close to both the Surf and 120 series.

TOYOTA LAND CRUISER Data Library

[Brian894X4]

Originally Posted by FirstToy

Now, ya see, that's the problem. Taking the wrong line. I would have just drove to the right there a little bit and avoided the rock all together and used that several grand in fancy mods to pay for the gas.

[dclee]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Well towing is one benchmark that clearly is in favour of the 120 series platform....it tows more not because of the engine or tranny (same as 120) but because it has newer techonology, frame engineering, brakes etc for the release in 2003. In 2003 the 100 series was already obsolete by power, towing, cargo standards at that time.

Sorry, coming in late to the discussion, but a few points...

All of these nebulous and unknown advancements in frame design, what are they? Hydro-forming??? You keep mentioning all the advancements in frame design, yet have not specified what those advancements are, nor quoted reliable sources as to their specific application to the 120 Series frame.

As far as towing capacity, that is not always a viable measure in comparing frame strength. You'll notice that the same vehicle will sometimes have different tow ratings in different countries. Part of the reason is due to the manufacturer's tolerance for paperwork and liability in a particular locale. It is not necessarily the empirical maximum towing capacity of that vehicle. And it definately is not dependant on frame strength alone.

OK, so my G-Wagen is rated by Mercedes-Benz to tow 7000 pounds, just like the 4Runner. Yet, that frame was designed in the early-1970s! How did it achieve this stellar tow rating without all of the advancements in frame design and metallurgy to come over the next three decades???

Another counter to your hypothesis: certain variants of the 404 UNIMOG are rated to tow 7700 kg with a braked trailer. That's 17,000 pounds! The frame rails are just C-channel for 75% of their length. They are actually designed to be able to flex independantly of each other in order to aid axle articulation. I have witnessed frames rails out of parallel by as much as one foot when really being flexed out!!! Certainly nothing like the stout frames under discussion here. Yet, that truck can still tow 17,000 pounds with a wavy frame, four drum brakes, and a weak 110 hp engine turning only 137 foot pounds of torque!!! What gives? Do you have an explanation for this seemingly supernatural anomaly?

Originally Posted by pagemaster

The 100 series Lexus LX470 uses 12.2 rotors up front and 12.8 inch rotors in the rear. The 120 series GX 470 uses 13.3 inches rotors up front and 12.3 inch rotors in the rear. Clearly the 120 series uses bigger brakes.

Brakes are a big factor in tow rating. That's probably one of the big reasons why the 4Runner is rated "higher" than the 100 in the States. Not because of stouter frame design.

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Cargo capacity is about the same as well with 2 more feet of capacity in the 100 series

What does cargo capacity have to do with the context of this discussion?

Originally Posted by pagemaster

The 100 series frame was designed and engineered in or around 1995-1997 for introductino in 1998. The 120 series likely started design and research in 2001 or so. Competition became tougher in those years and research in vehicle engineering advanced from 1998 LC to a 2003 4runner.

Since the 120 was introduced in 2002 in Japan, and was an evolution of the 90 Series which had been around since 1996, I think you might be off by a year or two...

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Currently Toyota claims that the 200 series Land Cruiser is the strongest frame they have ever built.

Possibly. What's your point? I thought we were talking about the 100 and 120...?

For the record, I think the 120 is a fantastic platform. Test drove one (a GX470) extensively. But there are many reasons why I bought a 100 instead...

[dclee]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

The 100 series was no doubt the strongest suv frame on the market when it was introduced in 1998. The engineering of the frame at time was stronger than the 4runner at the time but one can't really say that the current 4runner frame is weaker when it can perform just as good as the larger 100 series if not better in some aspects such as towing for instance.

Why do you keep coming back to frame strength and towing?

Originally Posted by pagemaster

The extra stiffness and refined manners come at a price, however--mass. The new, all-steel-bodied Cruiser weighs nearly 500 pounds more than its predecessor, mostly due to the chassis and body upgrades. Kondo says there was no plan to offset the added mass with lighter weight components, such as aluminum body panels. At nearly 6,500 pounds GVWR, the Cruiser is actually a medium-duty vehicle.

New Land Cruiser gets V-8 - Toyota Land Cruiser - includes related article on the Lexus LX450 | Automotive Industries | Find Articles at BNET

We can throw out the whole heavy duty issue. So its a medium duty vehicle.

Uhh, yeah, according to some journalist using the US DOT method of classifying a vehicle (GVWR). And they even got that part wrong. Since both vehicles are under 10,000 pounds GVWR, they are both classified as "light duty" vehicles by DOT. Notice that the "medium-duty" part was not a quote from Kondo.

When we talk about heavy duty versus light duty, as someone else alluded to earlier, we are not talking about GVWR. We are talking about component strength, designed-in durability, longevity. If this is not self-evident to you after physical observation of both vehicles (i.e. crawl underneath both of them), then I guess there's no point in any further discussion...

[NeilC]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

WTF you talking about hybrid stuff....



Yet is slower than hell as it taxed at max cargo weight and can't tow as much and is a gas pig.

Hybrid meaning several different uses not specifically made for 1 vehicle. The LC and LX are the same vehicle with 2 levels of trim. The 120 platform is made to serve several different vehicles both 2wd and 4wd. This is a cost savings method.

I already said the 4runner is faster so what are you talking about? The LC is smoother, quieter, and feels more planted or stable at speed. The 4runner feels lighter which is good for a sports car that you want to throw around but I like my trucks solid.

As for as towing, I have the v6 which still has plenty of power but isnt the v8. I have a trailer that I haul building supplies 150 miles to my camp and can tell you that I forget the trailer is back there with the LC. With the 4runner, I am always aware. The LC's mass seems to be less effected by the movements of the trailer. I also have to drop the 4runner's 5spd into 4th while I can leave the LC's 4 spd in OD. If I could change 1 thing about the LC, it would be to add the 5th gear which Toyota did later.

BTW, which one do you own or do you own either?

[eskimochaos]

Well, I'm really glad the way that this thread turned out. As a soon-to-be sophomore in college, I am very privileged to be driving a 07 v8 4R. I am sure it will give me years of reliable service on the road, and this is my ultimate plan as per someone else on this board.

My mom is on her second LC, she got a 99 drove it to work for 5 years, put 80k on the clock and dumped it. Got an 04 and drives it to work everyday, currently has 72k on the clock without one problem.

Although my mom doesn't care about what this car "can do" she loves it because of the safety and reliability that it has proven to her over the last 10 years. Her daily commute is 50 miles on a road with a lot of hills and a lot of trucks (route 78) Next summer she plans on getting a 200 and keeping that for 5 years. My plan is to take the 200 at the end of the 5 years. I will be out of college, have a job/apartment and I feel that it is a more appropriate time to have a LC over a 4R.

My only problem is if the 200 idea falls through with my mom and decides to get something like the GX. The buyout on her 04 LC after the lease is only 19k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel with some negotiation, I can trade my 07 4r for the 04 lc coming off lease with no money out of pocket. Doing the 90k expensive service would not deter me in one bit.

Back to the thread anyway:

we have concluded that the 4r is the best mid-class SUV that is plenty durable for some off road use

we have concluded that the LC is the toughest most over-engineered leather-lined tank ever forged and that it is used to rescue villagers by the UN in the toughest terrain on a daily basis

I just wish that Toyota would release more technical information to those consumers who are fascinated with the engineering that went into these beasts because lets face it, 90% of consumers are just like my mother where the most difficult terrain it sees in its life is the bump coming into the driveway.

I have a question regarding price differences over-seas. what is the difference between a stripped LC and a stripped 120 series without all the leather glam and stuff?

Keep this thread going!

[Nsingh85]

Its hard to do a price comparison with what you guys pay in the states to where i am.
Firstly the duty structure here is a killer, i paid over 100% duty on the value of the lc .
Secondly as there are not may suppliers of the cruiser, they already have a premium price.
All this talk about gas guzzlers, and how the lc's are loosing their value due to this.....well....i have not seen the value of the car reduce by even a $.

[SWUtah]

I've owned a 2004 4rnner AWD sport with the Xreas suspension (xwife got that one) and a 2007 4runner limited AWD, both were V8's. Great vehicles and I would recommend the Xreas suspension on the 4runner makes it a different vehcile. I've also owned 3 - 100 series, a 98 LC and 2 - 2004 LX's (don't ask why). No comparison, different vehicles from the 4runner. Both are nice but the LX470 is 10 times nicer and higher quality vehicle. Comfort is on a different level, in the 4runner you sit close to the floor with your legs at a uncomfortable angle, not good for a long trip. This quote from Jim Chows post I believe illustrates the difference between a 100 series and the 4runner and if we had all the spec's on both vehicles you would see this theme running through both vehicles "The 4th gen 4runner's 5spd tranny has aluminum planetary gears vs. the LC's steel gears. The aluminum gears saved 200 lbs. No word on the long-term durability yet."

[Trunk Monkey]

Firsttoy, "can't do that" and "dollar for dollar" are two different things.

Guys, I think we lost him. Probably back arguing with the 200 series crew about another Cruiser he may or may not own.

[Flight2k5]

You guys seem to be brainwashed into the whole "bigger is stronger" thinking. I guaranetee a HMMWV's frame is stronger than a 100 series LC even though it isnt bigger. The whole 4runner is newer so its a stronger frame? Well my 62 unimog has a VERY strong VERY flexible frame. You dont need a HUGE boxed stiff frame in order to be reliable. The frame on Unimogs are desgined to flex ALOT and they are c-channel. ALong with all big rigs, any military truck from LMTV's to 2.5 ton to 5-ton trucks are all c-channel. HMMWV's do have a boxed frame but again its not stiff, it is flexible.

[Topmounter]

Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey

Firsttoy, "can't do that" and "dollar for dollar" are two different things.

Guys, I think we lost him. Probably back arguing with the 200 series crew about another Cruiser he may or may not own.

All practical debate sort of ended with nsingh85's reports of actual performance in the "real world" of Landcruiserdom

[ShottsUZJ100]

Boy am I glad I don't participate in these debates any longer. Some of the unsubstantiated opinions and comments are amazing. ("The LC is light duty from '98 design while the 4R is tougher due to recent intro")

Ya, well they just redesigned the Subaru Forrester too.

[dclee]

Originally Posted by ShottsUZJ100

Boy am I glad I don't participate in these debates any longer.

You just did!

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by dclee

You just did!

I thought of that after I added in the quote.

[1loudLX]

Can L shocks be installed in a 4Runner?

[FirstToy]

Originally Posted by 1loudLX

Can L shocks be installed in a 4Runner?

yes but 4Runner owners have since gone on to far better choices.