Who will be first to convert their 100 to TD?

[dclee]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

I thought the 24V thing was because of the initial starting power required, ie it's easier to deal with 24V at a lower current than 12V at a higher current. The diesels use a lot more power at start because of the glow plugs right? I'm not sure how NATO figures into it.

Not really so much because of the glow-plugs themselves. Their only purpose is to heat the engine on a cold day so that combustion can occur more easily. If the engine has already been run for a while and is at operating temperature, they may not light at all. Some bigger commercial type diesels don't even use glow-plugs.

I think the main reason for the military/NATO specification of 24V systems is the efficiency, lower weight, and usually lower cost of such systems. These factors come into more focus in heavy-duty use. In some cases I think you are correct in that the greater starting power can also be useful, especially in colder weather. Also, it has evolved as the standard of most/all militaries and allows for commonality on the battlefield (I picture a British Land Rover jump-starting an American Abrams tank, or maybe that should be reversed...).

The point I was trying to make was that the choice of a 24V system is not always related to the type of engine. Sometimes it is a functional specification, sometimes an organizational one, sometimes both. But either gas or petrol engines can run on either 12V or 24V.

[ShottsUZJ100]

Glow plugs?

My next-door neighbor's VW Beetle has been towed in twice this year for glow plug issues. The car won't start and they end up replacing the plugs. Seems unreliable to me.

We've given up on push-starting....it doesn't work.

[hoser]

Do you think the gas powered VW Beetles are any more reliable?

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by hoser

Do you think the gas powered VW Beetles are any more reliable?

No way! Poo poo. Neat cars though.

Seriously though....are glow plug issues fairly common?

[hoser]

I do not know of any glow plug issues with the LC diesel engines (the ones I am familiar with). Some of them don't even use glow plugs but rather one glow screen at the intake manifold that heats the incoming air.

[dclee]

Originally Posted by ShottsUZJ100

Glow plugs?

My next-door neighbor's VW Beetle has been towed in twice this year for glow plug issues. The car won't start and they end up replacing the plugs. Seems unreliable to me.

We've given up on push-starting....it doesn't work.

That's one example, and it's a VW to boot (pretty much the most unreliable vehicles in the world, whether petrol or diesel).

Try again.

[knorrena]

I have read that car manufacturers are planning to move to 24v systems because they require smaller diameter wire due to lower current requirements, an increase in electronics, and lower cost alternators.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by knorrena

I have read that car manufacturers are planning to move to 24v systems because they require smaller diameter wire due to lower current requirements, an increase in electronics, and lower cost alternators.

I believe it's 42V.

[twstrchasr]

For me, the decision to get a diesel LC (USA) would probably come down to economics. Sure a TD LC would get better mileage but with diesel being higher in price, how long would it take for the TD to actually show savings vs. the gasser ? Also, from what I gather, only long term ownership will give the diesel a clear advantage over the gas motor..I'm definitely no expert, just hopefully learning some pro's and con's from people who do know what they are talking about, here on MUD !!

Ok, call me wierd, but since I was very little, I have always liked the smell of diesel !!

[Trunk Monkey]

To call diesels in general unreliable is a little narrow. There's got to be some reason that:

- Semi trucks are diesel (and million mile motors are common)
- Heavy equipment is diesel
- Military vehicles are diesel
- Emergency generators are diesel
- Locomotives are diesel

See a theme? If you need it to work, it's a diesel. Diesels typically have lower emissions that gas vehicles, especially with low sulfur fuel. And, with forced induction, they typically develop much more power and torque. Hell, the average full size truck here is putting out over 600 lb-ft of torque. That's huge!

And with the way Toyota builds engines, their diesels are awesome. They offer them everywhere else world where they need vehicles that will run a LONG time.

[ShottsUZJ100]

Originally Posted by dclee

pretty much the most unreliable vehicles in the world

True....the only worse vehicle brands reliability-wise are:

VW...-40% compared to average
MB...-57% (worse)
Cadillac...-68%
Hummer...-86%
LR...-153%

Even Jeep best these brands overall with a mean score of -26%.

[gearguywb]

This thread speaks volumes about why we do not have a good selection of diesel powered cars/suv's/rucks in the USA. The common misconceptions about noise/smell/reliability/etc. Diesel powered vehicles are FAR more common just about anywhere else in the world, but the US consumer is stuck in the old cliches.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey

To call diesels in general unreliable is a little narrow. There's got to be some reason that:

- Semi trucks are diesel (and million mile motors are common)
- Heavy equipment is diesel
- Military vehicles are diesel
- Emergency generators are diesel
- Locomotives are diesel

See a theme? If you need it to work, it's a diesel. Diesels typically have lower emissions that gas vehicles, especially with low sulfur fuel. And, with forced induction, they typically develop much more power and torque. Hell, the average full size truck here is putting out over 600 lb-ft of torque. That's huge!

And with the way Toyota builds engines, their diesels are awesome. They offer them everywhere else world where they need vehicles that will run a LONG time.

You forgot marine engines.

[Cruiserdrew]

Not much to add to the deisel vs gasoline debate, but I can relate a couple of stories.

I drove a Trooper II diesel for 2 weeks in Belize last year, and I loved the thing. It was no louder than a gas motor and at the medium speeds on the mostly dirt roads we travelled, it got outstanding fuel economy. Even with just a standard fuel tank it had great range for travels out into the rain forest. I was ready to buy it and bring it home with me. I will say it did not feel powerful, more like my FJ60, meaning it would eventually run up to any speed you wanted, as long as you didn't need to have it happen instantly. Great little truck.

The second incident has to do with range as well. We recently traveled through the Maze district of Canyonlands. One of our group had an 80 series diesel with an HD-T. We had to travel 5 days unsupported, with no fuel available at any price. By the time we did hit fuel, I had less than 1/4 tank, and that included pumping my subtank into the main. I probably used 33 gallons of gasoline. The diesel was just under 1/2 of his main tank-he probably used 16 gallons or so of diesel. I really believe it's these medium speeds where the diesel really shines.

I don't really care if the truck costs a little more or the economics don't make sense. The range of the vehicle would make up for all of that. I'm hoping to convert my FJ60 one day to a 4 BT. I'm not power mad, don't drive that fast, and in the 60 at least, I'm used to the slow lane. Bring it on.

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Not much to add to the deisel vs gasoline debate, but I can relate a couple of stories.

.....

I don't really care if the truck costs a little more or the economics don't make sense. The range of the vehicle would make up for all of that. I'm hoping to convert my FJ60 one day to a 4 BT. I'm not power mad, don't drive that fast, and in the 60 at least, I'm used to the slow lane. Bring it on.

X2 During our forays into central NV we run way to close to empty for my liking. I also don't enjoy bending over at the pumps at the out of the way gas stations, in NV or Death Valley.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey

To call diesels in general unreliable is a little narrow. There's got to be some reason that:

- Semi trucks are diesel (and million mile motors are common)
- Heavy equipment is diesel
- Military vehicles are diesel
- Emergency generators are diesel
- Locomotives are diesel

See a theme? If you need it to work, it's a diesel. Diesels typically have lower emissions that gas vehicles, especially with low sulfur fuel. And, with forced induction, they typically develop much more power and torque. Hell, the average full size truck here is putting out over 600 lb-ft of torque. That's huge!

And with the way Toyota builds engines, their diesels are awesome. They offer them everywhere else world where they need vehicles that will run a LONG time.

no doubt that inherently Diesels are more reliable -mechanically speaking- and more efficient.
Another theme with the vehicles you listed is indeed torque at low speed where the Diesel shines. Heavy equipment, farm tractors, etc for instance where you don't need speed but need plenty of torque. No doubt that's a big part of why they're all diesels.

[dclee]

Originally Posted by e9999

you don't need speed but need plenty of torque.

Well, you know what Enzo Ferrari always said: "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races!"

[Jim_Chow]

There's no secret that diesel is more robust than gasoline, especially the old-fashioned ones that don't require any electronics other than glow plugs. Diesel fuel contains more energy per unit volume. The new electronic ones are a lot quieter and even more efficient. The problem is most people's perceptions of diesel in this country are noisey engines like what you find in full-sized domestic pickups and clouds of black exhaust. If you've ever ridden in one of the toyota diesels, like the Crown sedan (diesel was discontinued around '03 in Japan due to emissions), you can barely hear the diesel "tick", plus the exhaust is clear (though you can smell the diesel odor when standing next to the tailpipe). There's lots of power too...no issues passing in a sedan w/ 5 passengers powered by a little turboed 2.2L 4-banger engine that gets 35mpg. As far as reliability goes, diesel is the international standard for longevity. No way that can be disputed. The NATO spec LC105's use the old-fashioned 1HZ diesel.

There was an article in the news yesterday that said US refineries plan to increase diesel output (for high international demand & a greater profit margin) at the expense of gasoline production.

Oil prices off their lows on weak supply report - May. 14, 2008

Here's another article on gas vs. diesel. Interestingly, it points out that some of the environmental gains from diesel are offset by it requiring more oil to produce the newer low sulfur formulations (requires 17% more oil and emits 18% more greenhouse gasses than gasoline formulated w/ ethanol).

Diesel vs. Gasoline - Is Diesel Performance Superior Overall Compared to Gasoline Power?

[OursSauvage]

With 25K USD + 2K for shipping you can buy a HDJ100 VXV, full option (a lot we don't have in North America) with something around 200.000Km (pretty nothing).
You can also find it with manual transmission (far much better if pre '03)
Even if the 1HD last generation is better (turbo with geometry variable) the better and funiest toyota diesel engine of all the time is the 12HT (and 13BT)

[100 TD]

Before I get banned for quoting Shotts I'd better say I just drove past the gas station and saw the latest price of Diesel is now $1.81 AUD per litre or $6.57USD per US gallon!
Unleaded is $1.53 AUD per litre or $5.55USD per US gallon.

[dclee]

Originally Posted by 100 TD

Before I get banned for quoting Shotts I'd better say I just drove past the gas station and saw the latest price of Diesel is now $1.81 AUD per litre or $6.57USD per US gallon!
Unleaded is $1.53 AUD per litre or $5.55USD per US gallon.

Geez, I thought we had it bad! I feel (well, sort of) your pain, my friend!

The math I use also takes into account fuel economy. IMHO that's the only true measure of total fuel cost. Sure I pay more per gallon, but I also get more miles out of each gallon. Since my ultimate goal is driving distance, that's the measure I use. Here's an example from my own personal experience:

Assume the price of Regular Unleaded (not even Premium) is $3.90 per gallon (as it is here).

Assume the price of Diesel is $4.70 per gallon (as it is here).

1980 Mercedes-Benz 280GE, 2.8L petrol motor, returns ~13 mpg mixed
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300GD, 3.0L diesel motor, otherwise identical truck, returns ~20 mpg mixed (and I drive somewhat aggressively).

For the gasser, that's 13 miles per gallon at $3.90 per gallon. 3.9/13 = $0.30 per mile.

For the diesel, that 20 miles per gallon at $4.70 per gallon. 4.7/20 = $0.24 per mile.

That's a 20% savings in fuel costs alone. Ratchet that up to the cost of Premium fuel that most modern Land Cruisers specify, and the disparity (in this case) goes up to 33%!

[Dandon]

Originally Posted by dclee

Geez, I thought we had it bad! I feel (well, sort of) your pain, my friend!

The math I use also takes into account fuel economy. IMHO that's the only true measure of total fuel cost. Sure I pay more per gallon, but I also get more miles out of each gallon. Since my ultimate goal is driving distance, that's the measure I use. Here's an example from my own personal experience:

Assume the price of Regular Unleaded (not even Premium) is $3.90 per gallon (as it is here).

Assume the price of Diesel is $4.70 per gallon (as it is here).

1980 Mercedes-Benz 280GE, 2.8L petrol motor, returns ~13 mpg mixed
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300GD, 3.0L diesel motor, otherwise identical truck, returns ~20 mpg mixed (and I drive somewhat aggressively).

For the gasser, that's 13 miles per gallon at $3.90 per gallon. 3.9/13 = $0.30 per mile.

For the diesel, that 20 miles per gallon at $4.70 per gallon. 4.7/20 = $0.24 per mile.

That's a 20% savings in fuel costs alone. Ratchet that up to the cost of Premium fuel that most modern Land Cruisers specify, and the disparity (in this case) goes up to 33%!

The 300GD delivered 88 HP, while the 280GE had 155 HP. If you have driven both versions, you'll know that is as huge difference. Whether the diesel suits you better or not, depends on what is important for you. Each one of us has a different personal balance of preferences between on-road performance, operating cost, driving range, confort, and many other factors.

Yes, the 300GD is a legendary offroad vehicle, and will probably last forever. I don't know it the contemporary 280GE would be up to par. But given a similar price, and if it was to be a DD as well as a trail rig, I would undoubtedly choose the GE because it suits me better.
But once again, we're talking about 30 year old technology. Compare it with a new 320 CDI, and all they have in common is that both have cylinders and a crankshaft

[uzj100]

This all may be a mute point since we MAY be getting the TD 200 series in 2009. See 200 section for details.