Timing Belt replacement signs?

[greglomax]

I just bought a 98 LC in immaculate shape. It has 80,000 miles on it, but looks like it should only have 20,000. Luckily the brakes were done right before I bought it. I am trying to anticipate other things that will need to be repaired. The timing belt replacement seems to be something that needs to be done around 90,000 miles. What are the signs that this needs to be done, or are there any signs before you have problems?

Also,
I am not sure when the fuel filter was last changed. Is it easily accessible? How about the fuel pump? Is it prone to needing replacement and if so, is it easily accessible? I had a Tahoe prior to this and the fuel pump was in the gas tank, which cost $600 to replace.

Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated. I look forward to putting another 100,000 on this vehicle.

Thanks

[turbocruiser]

I dont know of any obvious signs that a timing belt is ready to replace other than the mileage interval indicated in your owner's manual. This is something that should be replaced by the recommended interval; not worth waiting cause if it snaps, it really screws things up.

[Landpimp]

I am still waiting for my FSM but to me it looks like the fuel filter sit on the dirver side fender, should be no biggy to replace, but you want to depresurize the fuel system. Not sure what the change interval is, prolly 90K.

timing belt, just do it at 90k to be safe.

congrats in the 100 I am loving mine.

[BillWms01]

Like turbocruiser said, since it's not visible, I think the only thing you can go on is Toyota's recommended 90k mile trigger.

As for the consequences for a failure, I've seen conflicting information as to whether the 4.7L V8 is interference or non-interference. My dealer's Service Manager told me it was non-interference, so I suspect the consequences of a failure is leaving you needing a tow at an inopportune time/place.

[Landpimp]

I was told it was interference....right I dunno

[DMX84]

Good choice, glad to see you got rid of the Tahoe, I had one; it was a ’99 with 66k. I traded my ’89 FJ62 for it. :-\Selling points the ’97 Land Cruiser was too expensive & hard to find & the parts are easy to get for the Chevy. (Plus the wife liked it.) Worst mistake in my life! (Still trying to recover from that one) I worked on that Tahoe more in one year than the 10 years I owned the LC!(It had 220,000miles on it when I sold it) I’m Not talking about the normal wearing stuff either. That Chevy 350 was JUNK! They must have spent lots of time trying to figure out to make it problematic. They had engineers sitting around thinking of this stuff “we’ll use a coolant that won’t need replacing until 100K” and another engineer saying “And we’ll make some of the components susceptible to corrosion, so after warranty it will fail.” “Good thinking & we will make it a NAFTA special.” (North American Trade Agreement) That’s why you need two tool bags for it! SAE & Metric. You would think after 30 years of production that the 350 would be a great engine. ??? Suppose that’s why they use a different engine now? I’m into making something better/stronger & with the Tahoe I was just trying to keep it going. Besides it was horrible off road. Totally unreliable in my opinion & nobody wants them after 100K!
WHY?

[cruiserdan]

I don't think I would wait for valve-to-piston contact. A set of 32 valves, sitting on the counter, before you install them, runs $521.28

[greglomax]

I agree that I do not want to wait until damage is caused, but in the 6 vehicles I have had with over 100,000 miles, this has never been one of the things that I have had to deal with. Albeit, those vehicles had long lists of other things that went wrong like alternators, water pumps, fuel pumps, windshield wiper motors, etc. What is the commonality of the timing belt breaking and causing damage? I guess what I am getting at is, is there a pressing need to change it at 90,000 miles, or can it wait until 100,000+ miles? I can't believe that a LC is more susceptible to having the timing belt break than my 97 Tahoe was, and it had 128,000 miles on it when I traded it in last week. I definately want to make plans to do this some time this year, I just want to have some idea of how pressing an issue it is. Thanks for any feedback you can give.

[BillWms01]

Definitely interference, huh? :(

I thought most (all?) Toy engines with timing belts were non-interference, unlike some other makes (Honda, etc.). That's a lot of $$ riding on a belt not breaking.

I guess they've demonstrated that reliability of the belt within its 90-100K mile life is up to Toy standards.

[Landpimp]

was just talking to a guy in my office, he has a LS400, I asked if he had done the timing belt....he said nope :(

I drove my accord to 130k and didn't do the belt

but at 90k on the Cruiser and am doing the belt!

[tabraha]

Yup, the first sign is the only sign you get. It's the sound of your engine farting valves out of the tailpipe :'(

There is another recent thread that has the pricing alot of us have received lately so you can make sure your wrench is in line with the $$$. I did the main belt and some other misc. stuff while it was torn down that far. As far as mileage, yeah you can PROBABLY get 100k without much worry. It was too much worry for me though.


Tad

[turbocruiser]

[quote author=greglomax link=board=2;threadid=12047;start=msg110348#msg110 348 date=1077744937]
I agree that I do not want to wait until damage is caused, but in the 6 vehicles I have had with over 100,000 miles, this has never been one of the things that I have had to deal with. Albeit, those vehicles had long lists of other things that went wrong like alternators, water pumps, fuel pumps, windshield wiper motors, etc. What is the commonality of the timing belt breaking and causing damage? I guess what I am getting at is, is there a pressing need to change it at 90,000 miles, or can it wait until 100,000+ miles? I can't believe that a LC is more susceptible to having the timing belt break than my 97 Tahoe was, and it had 128,000 miles on it when I traded it in last week. I definately want to make plans to do this some time this year, I just want to have some idea of how pressing an issue it is. Thanks for any feedback you can give.
[/quote]

Hi, this is not intended to sound rude at all so please do not take it that way but you are missing the point...Toyota recommends the 90K interval for a reason and that is probably that almost all vehicles that change the belt by 90K will not need worry with the consequences of breakage. The 100 V8 engine is MOST DEFINITELY an interference engine! If your timing belt breaks you are SOL cost wise. I understnad that you have had heaps of vehicles (intended reference to the tahoe) where the timing belt did not break but again, you are missing the point, what if it did? The LCs are not any more prone to timing belt breakage but this is designed to be a replaceable part that is replaced with regularity, do not risk your otherwise wonderful V8 engine, get the belt at 90K and no later, every mile past 90K is one mile closer to terrible troubles. JMHO. HTH

[e9999]

Generic question (applicable to other topics) but this thread is perfect:

Let's assume that the rig is out of warranty and it has 85k mile, say, i.e. before the timing belt is supposed to be changed. It breaks...! What would Toyota's position be, you think:
- sorry, you're SOL!
- this shouldn't have happened, we'll fix it for ya!
?

If the former, would one have a case to argue forcefully that they should fix it because it broke before "its time" ?

just curious
Eric

[cruiserdan]

The outcome would depend a great deal on the service history of the vehicle and your relationship with your dealer. Since the vehicle would be past it's warranty coverage any participation by Toyota would be weighted by the service record of the vehicle.

Think of it like this:
Vehicle #1 is bought and is driven off the lot never to return for service or parts. Zipper Lube and Joey's garage work on it.
Vehicle #2 is serviced regularly by a dealer, maybe even somewhat irregularly.

Which one do you think would have a better chance?

[e9999]

well sure, but my question was more along the line of
"what if a part is supposed to be changed only at XXX miles and it breaks before then?"
you would think that they should replace it "pro bono" since it did not meet the design guidelines...
Have there been examples of this?
E

[cruiserdan]

I have not heard of one. I have not seen a failed V8 t-belt at all. I have seen some others that have come apart but they were all WAY past replacement time.

It is logical to assume that any published maintenance interval for any vehicle system would have a "cushion" of some sort in it. It would not be prudent for a manufacturer to "push the envelope"

D-

[uzj100]

Lets take this one step further. My truck is covered under the toyota certified program (engine & powertrain covered to 100k miles) so could I get away with waiting to 99k miles or would they say you did not follow the recommended service interval.

I would not do that but I am sure their are some folks out there with certified toyotas that probably would just wait.

I am getting the following done at 90k miles
replace t-belt
replace accessory belt
replace water pump
replace any oil seals
replace engine coolant with new (if not requested they will catch your old coolant and reinstall)
tranny flush
replace spark plugs
already replaced all diff fluids with synthetic @ 78k miles

Later,

uzj100

[e9999]

well, personally, I would change it at a tad before 90K with or w/o warranty coverage.
Either way you are covered or are out the same amount.

Let's say you have warranty till 100K and don't change the belt at 90K. Engine explodes at 99K due to belt failure. It would not be unreasonable for Toyota to assert that you invalidatd the terms of the warranty due to failure to abide by recommended maintenance interval, and bam! they are off the hook... You're SOL. You'd have a hard time arguing against that, I'm afraid.

E

[cruiserdan]

[quote author=e9999 link=board=2;threadid=12047;start=msg111017#msg111 017 date=1077817430]Let's say you have warranty till 100K and don't change the belt at 90K. Engine explodes at 99K due to belt failure. It would not be unreasonable for Toyota to assert that you invalidatd the terms of the warranty due to failure to abide by recommended maintenance interval, and bam! they are off the hook... You're SOL. You'd have a hard time arguing against that, I'm afraid.

E
[/quote]

Correct, Warranty coverage requires maintenance records be maintained and provided on request. No record, no responsibility.

[DMX84]

I agree with e9999. Replace it before it’s time.
I know on my VR4 Galant (interference motor) the book says to replace the timing belt at 60K. It’s widely known in the VR4 community that it needs to be done at 45K.
With all the advantages of the duel-overhead cam, changing the belt is not a big deal.
And your ‘97 Tahoe used a chain. Although the chain did last a long time, the problem is that it stretched causing slight timing variances. The belt design keeps the valve timing spot on. And if you need to really get precise, there is an adjustable cam pulley for fine tuning on some applications. On some high performance applications they do away with the chain and add gear drive systems. greglomax, you can’t go wrong with a Land Cruiser. The belt is a minor deal, if you really think about it. Most people will only change the belt once before they sell it. You got a really nice deal on a supper Land Cruiser. Replace the belt and you won’t have to worry about it for a long time. The’98 is one that I am looking at to purchase.
Also, were else can you find a bunch of guys that love nothing more than talking about Land Cruisers! I doubt that there is a BB for Chevy Tahoe’s that even comes close to this one!
Welcome aboard greglomax
DMX

[BOUNDER]

As for the consequences for a failure, I've seen conflicting information as to whether the 4.7L V8 is interference or non-interference. My dealer's Service Manager told me it was non-interference, so I suspect the consequences of a failure is leaving you needing a tow at an inopportune time/place.

[/quote]


Exactly my thought. I believe some older Honda's are trouble but not Toyotas.

[ppressle]

Pictures of my Timing Belt Replacement

Might be useful if you have questions before you start the job.

Pete

[jp213a]

Originally Posted by turbocruiser

I dont know of any obvious signs that a timing belt is ready to replace other than the mileage interval.

Remove the timing belt cover on the right side of the engine and do a visual inspection. It takes about ten minutes to remove the cover. Note: Right side is the passenger side for a left-hand drive.

[Jim_Chow]

My dealer recommends 105K for the V8 but 75K for the V6, saying from their experience, the V8 is easy on t-belts while the V6 is harsh on them. Both engines recommend 90K for changing the belts, but they say those are general toyota guidelines that are adjusted to how the belts wear for different engines, usage, and conditions.

Unless the PO used some very shoddy gas, my hunch is your fuel filter should be fine. I had the fuel filter in my 4runner changed at 17 yrs and about 140K mi, and didn't notice any difference. For the first 14 yrs/93K mi, the PO (father) used normal (Arco, mobil, shell) 87 octane. The next 47K mi used chevron 91 octane. Vehicle ran great before the fuel filter change, no difference after. If you have some reason to suspect your fuel filter is dirty/clogged, your injectors might also have problems. BTW, I have yet to clean my injectors at (now) 20 yrs., so far, so good (hope i didn't just jinx myself).

[Tim Toussaint]

When you are talking "timing belt", is this the same as "cam belt"? Also, can you confirm that only the Land Cruiser 100 GX Diesel has a cam belt (that indeed needs replacing at a prescribed mileage), whereas the 100 GX Petrol has a timing chain. The timing chain is to be changed "on condition"; the mechanic can hear the specific noise from a timing chain that needs replacing. Is that correct?

[Jim_Chow]

Originally Posted by Tim Toussaint

When you are talking "timing belt", is this the same as "cam belt"? Also, can you confirm that only the Land Cruiser 100 GX Diesel has a cam belt (that indeed needs replacing at a prescribed mileage), whereas the 100 GX Petrol has a timing chain. The timing chain is to be changed "on condition"; the mechanic can hear the specific noise from a timing chain that needs replacing. Is that correct?

The timing chain will rattle upon startup when stretched. Once the oil pressure builds up, the tensioner takes out the slack and you shouldn't hear the rattle. If you do,it's a sign the chain/tensioner/guides/sprockets need replacing.

The only cases I've heard of timing chain failure is from tensioner failure or guide failure. I'm not sure about the guides in the 80, but in the 22r (4cylinder) hilux engines, toyota originally used a double timing chain with steel guides. Then they went to a single chain w/ steel guides, then to plastic guides. I've heard cases on the 4runner forums of the plastic guides failing, jamming the tensioner and causing the chain to fail, but one can get aftermarket steel guides for the 22r. You should be able to get 250K or so miles off the timing chain before replacement, but replacing it is a bigger job and there are more parts (guides, sprockets, tensioner, etc.) and more labor costs. One toyota tech told me the only time he's seen t-chain failure is from the tensioner failing from sludge.

Pricewise, it's about a wash. You have to do the t-belt twice as often, but it's less cost (dealer charges $1300 for the t-chain job [10 hrs labor @ $75/hr by the book+parts, but with shortcuts, it can be done in 4 hrs by a seasoned mechanic]; t-belt job is probably more like $700 or less?). The main advantage is the chain will start to rattle long before it fails, so you get some warning (how much, who knows?) One guy on the 4runner forum had that warning and tried to squeeze another month of driving out of it. During that month, it failed, chain sawed through the coolant lines in the head.

[EdsCruisin]

Originally Posted by e9999

Generic question (applicable to other topics) but this thread is perfect:

Let's assume that the rig is out of warranty and it has 85k mile, say, i.e. before the timing belt is supposed to be changed. It breaks...! What would Toyota's position be, you think:
- sorry, you're SOL!
- this shouldn't have happened, we'll fix it for ya!
?

If the former, would one have a case to argue forcefully that they should fix it because it broke before "its time" ?

just curious
Eric

I have successfully had timing belts replaced by dealers in this scenario on a Pontiac and a Nissan. The GM dealer tried to claim it was a normal wear and tear belt that should be inspected and replaced such as the fan belt. I argued that it is an internal engine part that is a chain and gears on other GM engines. The Nissan was a blown oil seal issue that spread oil on the belt. The fools were going to reassemble the oil soaked timing belt on and give it back to me. I had to provide the service manager a basic lesson about stretching oil soaked belts and threaten to call Nissan USA about it. The van was less than 1000 miles from out of warranty.

We receive a small pamphlet about our warranty. The dealer has a shelf full of books to counter it. When pressed the GM dealer could not find an interpretation in the books that suggested the timing belt/chain was anything other than an internal engine part.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by Jim_Chow

The timing chain will rattle upon startup when stretched. Once the oil pressure builds up, the tensioner takes out the slack and you shouldn't hear the rattle. If you do,it's a sign the chain/tensioner/guides/sprockets need replacing.

The only cases I've heard of timing chain failure is from tensioner failure or guide failure. I'm not sure about the guides in the 80, but in the 22r (4cylinder) hilux engines, toyota originally used a double timing chain with steel guides. Then they went to a single chain w/ steel guides, then to plastic guides. I've heard cases on the 4runner forums of the plastic guides failing, jamming the tensioner and causing the chain to fail, but one can get aftermarket steel guides for the 22r. You should be able to get 250K or so miles off the timing chain before replacement, but replacing it is a bigger job and there are more parts (guides, sprockets, tensioner, etc.) and more labor costs. One toyota tech told me the only time he's seen t-chain failure is from the tensioner failing from sludge.

Pricewise, it's about a wash. You have to do the t-belt twice as often, but it's less cost (dealer charges $1300 for the t-chain job [10 hrs labor @ $75/hr by the book+parts, but with shortcuts, it can be done in 4 hrs by a seasoned mechanic]; t-belt job is probably more like $700 or less?). The main advantage is the chain will start to rattle long before it fails, so you get some warning (how much, who knows?) One guy on the 4runner forum had that warning and tried to squeeze another month of driving out of it. During that month, it failed, chain sawed through the coolant lines in the head.

It seems odd to me that a chain would be so much more expensive than a belt to replace. Why the big difference?